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View Full Version : Yikes! From 88 to Auth


Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 03:22 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-Ty-Cobb-BAT-OFF-SHOULDER-SGC-Auth-NM-MT_W0QQitemZ200410148220QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Base ball?hash=item2ea9602d7c

HRBAKER
11-25-2009, 03:27 PM
A cautionary tale. Why would you break out an 88? Or, what are the chances that most pw 88s/8/9 may have the same thing happen upon reexamination? Ah, the grading game.

Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 03:28 PM
It is only one example, but a huge one, of an apparent SGC mistake. Let those who delight in PSA's mistakes take notice.

rc4157
11-25-2009, 03:29 PM
Jeff, that was my first thought as well but if the collector has all PSA then that's got to be what he was going after, his ranking in PSA.

Sounds crazy to many but I guess makes perfect sense to others. It looked nice in the original SGC to me.

Pup6913
11-25-2009, 03:31 PM
What a shame. That card is a Beauty. Wish they would cross that Wagner:D

Leon
11-25-2009, 03:45 PM
Most definitely SGC could make a mistake just as any other TPG can. That being said how do we know it wasn't tampered with when it was broken out?

I feel a large percentage (don't know the number exactly) of NM-MT and above pre-war cards are tainted. Unless there is great provenance, or some reason to own one, I usually shy away from high grade. Not always, but usually.

Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 03:48 PM
Tampering with a $15,000 card that already had graded seems quite a gamble. More likely it was no good to begin with.

HRBAKER
11-25-2009, 03:48 PM
I feel a large percentage (don't know the number exactly) of NM-MT and above pre-war cards are tainted.

My point exactly.

Leon
11-25-2009, 03:51 PM
Tampering with a $15,000 card that already had graded seems quite a gamble. More likely it was no good to begin with.

I agree but there is always that chance of someone thinking they could go from an 8 to a 9....then the 10k-15k becomes 30k-50k.....A gamble yes, but I have seen worse...

barrysloate
11-25-2009, 03:53 PM
That card has really big borders and looks fine. I have to agree that the risk buying high grade cards, even graded ones, is great.

ChiefBenderForever
11-25-2009, 04:50 PM
That card has really big borders and looks fine. I have to agree that the risk buying high grade cards, even graded ones, is great.

I agree, it has to measure out, there is thousands of graded T206 with less border than that, wtf ?

autograf
11-25-2009, 06:02 PM
There must be something with the border of one or more sides that leads them to believe it's been trimmed. I understand having all your cards be of a single TPG company but geez.....why break something like that out when there are absolutely no guarantees. Just seems kinda crazy. If he paid $15K for it, how much will it bring now? $1500-$2000 just based on the 'look'. It'll be interesting to see what it brings. Cautionary tale for the resubmit game......

barrysloate
11-25-2009, 06:40 PM
Anybody who has a beautiful SGC 88- and that card is gorgeous- and cracks it out to resubmit, deserves what he got.

Mikehealer
11-25-2009, 06:53 PM
Anybody who has a beautiful SGC 88- and that card is gorgeous- and cracks it out to resubmit, deserves what he got.

No doubt.

Rob D.
11-25-2009, 06:58 PM
Anybody who has a beautiful SGC 88- and that card is gorgeous- and cracks it out to resubmit, deserves what he got.

Once again, conclusions drawn and assumptions made without knowledge of all the facts.

Ah, the beauty of Net54.

barrysloate
11-25-2009, 07:11 PM
Never let facts get in the way of a good story.

Mikehealer
11-25-2009, 07:16 PM
Once again, conclusions drawn and assumptions made without knowledge of all the facts.

Ah, the beauty of Net54.

Fill us in, what are all the facts. In the description the seller states "This card was originally purchased in an SGC 88 holder (see scan below) and was cracked out for grading by PSA a while back by an unfortunate collector."

It would be interesting to know the whole story.

Rob D.
11-25-2009, 07:27 PM
I don't know all of the facts, Mike, which is why I would not assume that the person who cracked it out "deserves to get" anything.

Collectors on this board post all of the time how they like to have all of their cards slabbed by one company. Quite often the company of choice is SGC, so few on the board ever question those decisions. Who knows why the owner of this card did what he did? And even if it was greed in hopes of getting a higher grade, so what? Again, people often post on the board about resubmitting cards in hopes of getting a half-point bump.

I can only imagine the reaction to this story if the card had started in a PSA 8 slab and was submitted to SGC, which deemed it trimmed. There would be the usual outcries demanding that "we" have to "hold PSA responsible" for such sloppy work. This post already would have 100-plus posts by people jumping on PSA with both feet.

But because it was SGC that originally missed the trim, that's conveniently overlooked, and it's the owner of the card who somehow is at fault and is deserving of the monetary misfortune he experienced.

bigfish
11-25-2009, 07:34 PM
SGC made a mistake and corrected it. What seems to be the issue here?

Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 07:35 PM
SGC = Teflon. :D

Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 07:35 PM
SGC made a mistake and corrected it. What seems to be the issue here?

They slabbed a trimmed card is the issue, and had the owner not cracked it out, and PSA discovered the truth, it would be in some auction fetching a world record price.

ChiefBenderForever
11-25-2009, 07:39 PM
I can see how one side is a little slanted but couldn't that be a factory cut ? Is it even trimmed ? And again, it has to measure out. Why wouldn't they resubmit, and what mistake was made, it doesn't looked trimmed ?

bigfish
11-25-2009, 07:40 PM
I assume the owner took a gamble taking a card out of an 88 holder? Not a bright move. That was their mistake. They should eat it. They also could have done something to the card prior to re submitting it to psa. It is now in an authentic holder where it belongs. Not sure where your beef is?

Pup6913
11-25-2009, 07:43 PM
I don't know all of the facts, Mike, which is why I would not assume that the person who cracked it out "deserves to get" anything.

Collectors on this board post all of the time how they like to have all of their cards slabbed by one company. Quite often the company of choice is SGC, so few on the board ever question those decisions. Who knows why the owner of this card did what he did? And even if it was greed in hopes of getting a higher grade, so what? Again, people often post on the board about resubmitting cards in hopes of getting a half-point bump.

I can only imagine the reaction to this story if the card had started in a PSA 8 slab and was submitted to SGC, which deemed it trimmed. There would be the usual outcries demanding that "we" have to "hold PSA responsible" for such sloppy work. This post already would have 100-plus posts by people jumping on PSA with both feet.

But because it was SGC that originally missed the trim, that's conveniently overlooked, and it's the owner of the card who somehow is at fault and is deserving of the monetary misfortune he experienced.

I agree to some point but the fact is that there are FAR more PSA mess ups than SGC. Maybe this is the reason. Now if it was in a GAI holder they (most) would be saying "should have seen it coming". GAI wasn't that bad, just not that good:eek:

Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 07:44 PM
I cannot explain it any better than I already did. They graded a major card an 8 that should not have been graded. If you don't think that is a significant mistake, I don't know how to respond.

Abravefan11
11-25-2009, 07:47 PM
I know with SGC when a card is submitted for crossover in another companies holder and fails to meet the minimum grade declared by the customer, it will be returned as it was sent in.

Many collectors though feel that submitting a card in a holder effects the graders ability to look at the card objectively and crack them out and submit them raw.

I don't know the motives of this particular person, but I know I personally wouldn't risk sending it in raw. Even if it drops one grade it's a five figure loss.

And one other note: If this card was cracked out, isn't it possible it was trimmed even in the slightest before being resubmitted to PSA?

bigfish
11-25-2009, 07:47 PM
Take a look at the 33 Lajoie in a PSA 6 holder that was in a major auction a few months back. Looked like my cat took a bite out of the back of the card. That is a real issue. There are mistakes made all the time. It was a mistake and was corrected.

Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 07:52 PM
Honestly? I would like a grading service where the owner was not a buyer and seller of cards, so I didn't even have to speculate about the possibilities when situations like this arise. And to be clear that is all I am doing, speculating. EDIT TO ADD To be clear I have seen numerous PSA cards I don't like the looks of.

ChiefBenderForever
11-25-2009, 07:56 PM
It looks good to me ! I'm gonna buy it, wait a few months, resubmit and get a 9.5 and make a 150,000 profit !

bigfish
11-25-2009, 07:58 PM
I agree with you on the last post. I just do not think this example is the best one to make a point. Happy Holidays!!

Peter_Spaeth
11-25-2009, 07:59 PM
You too!

Leon
11-25-2009, 07:59 PM
I wouldn't want what I said above to be misconstrued as me thinking it wasn't probably a mistake on SGC's part. It probably was but I don't know all of the facts. If they deemed it trimmed the second time maybe they missed it the first time.....and since it was cracked....so be it....the grading game continues....For the record I don't see me ever cracking an 8....of PSA or SGC or Beckett....To me that is just asking for trouble...and at the same time if someone owns the card they can do what they want with it...

BobbyVCP
11-25-2009, 08:35 PM
I am sure someone is going to buy it and crack it out and it will be in a PSA 8 holder one day.

Al C.risafulli
11-25-2009, 08:44 PM
Oh, this thread again?

-Al

E93
11-25-2009, 11:43 PM
SGC made a mistake and corrected it. What seems to be the issue here?

About $13,000 in value is the issue!

Since the guy cracked the card and there was no chain of custody to verify that no tampering was done with the card, SGC really can't be held responsible. But if they believe that they made a mistake the first time around and then corrected their own mistake (and not that the card was tampered with in the interim), then I think they morally have a responsibility to make restitution. Those are big IFs since they obviously can't remember the details of every card they have graded and honestly don't know what, if anything happened when the card was out of their holder. I am speaking more theoretically here than about what will or ought to happen in actuality.
JimB

Wesley
11-25-2009, 11:46 PM
Here is the description on ebay:

"So this is a sad story. This card was originally purchased in an SGC 88 holder (see scan below) and was cracked out for grading by PSA a while back by an unfortunate collector. PSA determined the card was trimmed, and SGC agreed upon re-evaluation. While SGC admitted they'd made a serious error, the card had already been removed from their holder. In the end, SGC has regraded the card as Authentic due to the suspected trimming."



So SGC acknowledge that it had incorrectly graded this card the first time. If that is the case, will SGC buy the card back under it's buyback policy? Or is the owner out of luck since he removed the card from the slab?

Wesley
11-25-2009, 11:49 PM
Oh, this thread again?

-Al


Al,

Has this T206 Cobb card been discussed previously?

Wes

Bosox Blair
11-26-2009, 12:44 AM
Or is the owner out of luck since he removed the card from the slab?

Yes - you can bet that is it. And there's good reason for a condition like that on your guarantee. SGC is responsible for the contents of that holder matching their representation while it remains sealed in the holder and not tampered with.

This guy busted it out (could easily have damaged it then), sent it in the mail (could easily have damaged), had PSA guys paw it over (could easily have damaged it)...and who knows what the owner did while the card was busted out? What company on earth would continue to guarantee anything under those conditions? None.

The guy fully got what he deserved. The only reason he busted it out was to shoot for an 8.5 or 9. Otherwise he would have sent it in SGC slabbed. PSA would have refused to cross for evidence of trimming and sent it back in the SGC slab. On re-evaluation if SGC agreed, their guarantee would absolutely have applied.

Sometimes greed ain't so good...is that not clear yet after 2008/2009?

Cheers,
Blair

Ladder7
11-26-2009, 05:34 AM
I haven't seen a beating like this since I had a banana in my pocket and someone turned the monkey loose.

If they gave awards to Monday morning quarterbacks, I'd win the Heisman... But, wouldn't it be nice to see this thing in the original slab?

Shame on the gambler for not taking a few minutes to ask, "Hey guys, think this would get a bump?" Though Im sure he knows this.

egbeachley
11-26-2009, 07:00 AM
Yes - you can bet that is it. And there's good reason for a condition like that on your guarantee. SGC is responsible for the contents of that holder matching their representation while it remains sealed in the holder and not tampered with.

This guy busted it out (could easily have damaged it then), sent it in the mail (could easily have damaged), had PSA guys paw it over (could easily have damaged it)...and who knows what the owner did while the card was busted out? What company on earth would continue to guarantee anything under those conditions? None.

The guy fully got what he deserved. The only reason he busted it out was to shoot for an 8.5 or 9. Otherwise he would have sent it in SGC slabbed. PSA would have refused to cross for evidence of trimming and sent it back in the SGC slab. On re-evaluation if SGC agreed, their guarantee would absolutely have applied.


I think Blair summed it up well. Plus SGC could not admit a mistake after all those handling processes after it was cracked out. That's the seller's own words.

FrankWakefield
11-26-2009, 08:14 AM
I don't think what I'm about to say will alter anyone's thinking on this matter... we, especially me, are all pretty well set in our ways.

But what are you guys saying???? The card is the card, it hasn't changed, it is the same card. If it was wrongly in an 88 holder wouldn't you all agree (no) that it should be broken out and resubmitted. To leave it in a holder it doesn't deserve, isn't that wrongful, misleading, and all of that other stuff I hear about?? Are you guys really saying it should have been left in a holder that would potentially mislead a possible buyer who was only looking at the slab number and not the card??

Seems to me that if the card was inaccurately graded before, and now is accurately graded, you guys should all be lauding that. For me, I think breaking him out of the 88 was a good start, and a good place to stop, instead of wasting money on regrading. And if the card had not been graded in the first place, then all would be well...

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Peter_Spaeth
11-26-2009, 09:22 AM
I agree with Frank insofar as this particular card goes, it is fortunate this happened so a trimmed card is not on the market in an 88 holder. The real issue of course is how many similar mistakes have been made by both grading services. One shudders to think what would happen if one cracked out all the high dollar value 8s and 9s and resubmitted them.

HRBAKER
11-26-2009, 09:46 AM
There is a very good chance (IMO) that any card that old graded that high has been played with. So if you want to play the resubmit game regardless of your motives (I want it for my registry set, I have all my cards in PSA holders, whatever) IMO you are the one taking a huge gamble just like you did when you bought the 88 to start with. I am assuming the submitter for one reason or another decided that he stood a better chance of it crossing or bumping if it was cracked out, when this hapened the guarantee of any sort was relenquished.

Of course it could be the case that good old-fashioned greed was the reason as well. Don't know but there wouldn't be anything wrong with that either.

And Frank your question gets to the real essence of the situation, what is the most important thing; what the card really is or what the holder says it is.

buymycards
11-26-2009, 10:13 AM
I agree with Jeff. It is difficult for me to believe that ANY T206 was cut in the factory, inserted into a pack, shipped to a store, purchased by the customer, removed from the cigarettes, and still survived all of these years with 4 razor sharp corners.

Happy Turkey Day!

Rick

Rob D.
11-26-2009, 10:35 AM
If a card is a card, then why do collectors who disdain graded cards and the companies that grade them often have their raw cards slabbed -- or ask an auction company to have them slabbed -- before selling them?

I mean, golly gosh darn, the card's still the same card, graded or raw. Right, fellas?

Peter_Spaeth
11-26-2009, 10:45 AM
And the winner of today's rhetorical question award is..... :D:D

FrankWakefield
11-26-2009, 10:51 AM
Because, Rob, as you already know, when someone's selling a card, the seller is seeking money, not the card. And a graded card might sell to either a card collector, or a collector of graded cards; while an ungraded card would be attractive to fewer potential buyers.

I understand why a seller might get a card graded. That, at least, makes some sense.

3-2-count
11-26-2009, 11:01 AM
First off I think it's pretty shitty for anyone to say, "the submitter got what he had coming". C'mon guys!!! And as far as the card in question goes, whether it's good, bad, etc, I personally would have never cracked a card like that for re-submission to both Psa & Sgc. It should have been simply reviewed in it's current holder and lived with whatever decision was made. Once the card was cracked any guarantee that Sgc has in place for re-inbursment on a card wrongfully graded was out the window.
Just a bad decision that was made. Nothing more, nothing less.

martindl
11-26-2009, 12:13 PM
I don't think what I'm about to say will alter anyone's thinking on this matter... we, especially me, are all pretty well set in our ways.

But what are you guys saying???? The card is the card, it hasn't changed, it is the same card. If it was wrongly in an 88 holder wouldn't you all agree (no) that it should be broken out and resubmitted. To leave it in a holder it doesn't deserve, isn't that wrongful, misleading, and all of that other stuff I hear about?? Are you guys really saying it should have been left in a holder that would potentially mislead a possible buyer who was only looking at the slab number and not the card??

Seems to me that if the card was inaccurately graded before, and now is accurately graded, you guys should all be lauding that. For me, I think breaking him out of the 88 was a good start, and a good place to stop, instead of wasting money on regrading. And if the card had not been graded in the first place, then all would be well...

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

I tried three times yesterday to write out my thoughts on this and could never get happy with the results, so just gave up. Thank you Frank for managing to post exactly what I was trying to say, but couldn't.

There is no "sad story" here and there is no "what a shame", save perhaps for the fellow that purchased the card at 88 for high dollars and now finds he's out some money. Its a sad story for him, but for everyone else, its not.

This is a good thing surely. A seemingly bogus card is now rightfully graded as Authentic.

Rob D.
11-26-2009, 02:36 PM
I tried three times yesterday to write out my thoughts on this and could never get happy with the results, so just gave up. Thank you Frank for managing to post exactly what I was trying to say, but couldn't.

Well, I guess one man's literacy is another's hypocrisy.

Pup6913
11-26-2009, 02:43 PM
So if the guy subbmitted the card in a SGC 88 holder would PSA crack it out to inspect it and then cross it?? Or do they do like SGC and inspect the card in its case and make a decision based on that:confused:

Abravefan11
11-26-2009, 07:25 PM
So if the guy subbmitted the card in a SGC 88 holder would PSA crack it out to inspect it and then cross it?? Or do they do like SGC and inspect the card in its case and make a decision based on that:confused:

I don't know for sure the answer to your question about PSA but this is a problem I have with the crossover process.

If you send in a PSA 8 in the holder to SGC for crossover and the card is rejected as trimmed it will be sent back to you in the PSA 8 holder.

Do you think more people would contact PSA and begin the fight to get their money from them for improperly grading the card, or simply sell the card on the open market as a PSA 8 knowing it to be trimmed?

Fred
11-26-2009, 08:24 PM
Wow, what a bummer. What happens if SGC was right the first time? :confused:

If I resubmitted it (which I wouldn't have had the balls to do), I'd be pretty upset. :mad:

What was the person that resubmitted thinking? Were they thinking this could be upgraded to an 8.5 or even a 9.0.... big dreams...:rolleyes:

I still can't get over someone wanting to break it out for a resubmission. I'd have told the grading company that either the card crosses to the same grade or higher or the card can only get a higher grade - I'd have told them to not breaker it out otherwise... if they did and I got back an AUTH slab I'd be shocked :eek:

calvindog
11-26-2009, 08:37 PM
What was the person that resubmitted thinking? Were they thinking this could be upgraded to an 8.5 or even a 9.0.... big dreams...:rolleyes:



This hobby is filled with individuals who commit fraud every day, even when they know they are being watched, even when they are called out for it on this board -- so why should this be a surprise?

Jim VB
11-26-2009, 08:58 PM
This hobby is filled with individuals who commit fraud every day, even when they know they are being watched, even when they are called out for it on this board...



Yeah. Aren't they great guys though?

calvindog
11-26-2009, 09:05 PM
The best guys. However, my gut tells me that the worm is about to turn....

Peter_Spaeth
11-26-2009, 09:22 PM
There is no chance PSA would cross the card without examining it out of the holder, so the guy had no choice but to crack it out. Would YOU cross a card without examining the edges even if it looks full size?

HRBAKER
11-26-2009, 09:33 PM
Then the prudent thing was to be happy with what you had, or what you thought you had.

Peter_Spaeth
11-26-2009, 09:36 PM
Then the prudent thing was to be happy with what you had, or what you thought you had.

I sort of agree, but at the same time wasn't the guy justified in assuming the Net 54 grader of choice SGC would not have graded the card an 88 if it was trimmed? Isn't that what we rely on grading companies for? So are you saying we can't rely on them? And if we can't rely on them, why are we paying them, simply to commoditize our cards? And what are they selling if not expertise?

egbeachley
11-26-2009, 09:36 PM
There is no chance PSA would cross the card without examining it out of the holder, so the guy had no choice but to crack it out. Would YOU cross a card without examining the edges even if it looks full size?


What? Their entire crossover service is based on doing just that.

Peter_Spaeth
11-26-2009, 09:41 PM
What? Their entire crossover service is based on doing just that.

They will cross a $15,000 NM/Mt card without examining the card out of the slab? So by definition without a clear look at the edges? That is scary if true. I think SGC has a dollar value limit for that type of service.

egbeachley
11-26-2009, 09:46 PM
Straight from the website.

Crossover Service (Cards) Cards graded by other third-party firms may be submitted in their holders for PSA grading. This service is available under all service levels. PSA will evaluate the card inside the current holder. If PSA deems the card worthy to cross over into the Customer’s specified minimum grade, the card will be removed from its holder and placed into a PSA holder. Customers using the Crossover Service must provide a minimum grade on the submission form.

Sterling Sports Auctions
11-26-2009, 10:06 PM
Peter Spaeth, alot of what you are saying is speculation and are not quite sure of the facts. As stated SGC will not crossover a card if it does not meet the minimum grade, thus if they feel it does not they will not crack the card out.

As far as PSA policies (Ed has that covered), but I was SGC and a card came back to me out of it's original holder and told it had been altered. The submitter took SGC off any responsiblity once the card left the holder. If there was a question to it being trimmed by PSA they should have left it in the holder sent it back to the owner and the owner take it to SGC from there.

edit for a lack of observation,

Lee

Sterling Sports Auctions
11-26-2009, 10:16 PM
Just wanted to add the SGC pop report shows 1 1910 Piedmont Cobb graded, no designation to the pose.

Lee

docpatlv
11-26-2009, 10:47 PM
Lee,

Click on the link in the first post and scroll down.

Mike

terjung
11-26-2009, 11:00 PM
I still would love to see the card in an 88 holder,

From the listing...

http://i94.servimg.com/u/f94/13/04/98/39/brehm011.jpghttp://i94.servimg.com/u/f94/13/04/98/39/brehms10.jpg

Sterling Sports Auctions
11-26-2009, 11:29 PM
Damn, I never did scroll down that far. With ebay newer style it doesn't show much on the bottom anymore.

Thanks Guys, sure would like to hear from the SGC guys on this one.

Lee

HRBAKER
11-27-2009, 09:35 AM
I sort of agree, but at the same time wasn't the guy justified in assuming the Net 54 grader of choice SGC would not have graded the card an 88 if it was trimmed? Isn't that what we rely on grading companies for? So are you saying we can't rely on them? And if we can't rely on them, why are we paying them, simply to commoditize our cards? And what are they selling if not expertise?


Peter,

All good points. And yes they should all be reliable. Who knows, did they miss it the first time or the second time? What is the upside in breaking out an 88? A 8.5, a 9? To me that is a long shot but I assume that the breakee thought the worst case scenario was to get it back in an 88 holder. Is is worth it to void the guarantee by cracking it out to submit?

Jeff

bobafett72
11-27-2009, 09:38 AM
It's still a beautiful card. PSA collector or not, that was a foolish gamble to bust the holder.

Matt
11-27-2009, 10:47 AM
The sad thing is that whoever buys this cards is most probably going to crack it and make at least 1 attempt to have it numerically graded, if not more.

Peter_Spaeth
11-27-2009, 01:45 PM
The sad thing is that whoever buys this cards is most probably going to crack it and make at least 1 attempt to have it numerically graded, if not more.

Save the scans. You are right, it will probably come full circle.