Sherry Magee or Bristol Lord....what's your guess ?

[tedzan]

I'm looking at my Bristol Lord card (it's blank-backed, so I don't know if it's a 1910 NADJA, 1911 Cullivan's Fireside,
or a D359). In any event, I tell myself that I have seen this face before.

Yes....of course, it's the face on the 1909 T206 Sherry Magee card.....albeit a reverse image.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abmageelord.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


OK Net54ers, am I imagining things, or are these two portraits of the same guy ?

And if so, can you vintage BB photo experts identify who is who here ?


Incidently......both Magee and Lord have the following in common......

Born a year apart in countryside towns in Pennsylvania

Started their major league careers in BB in 1905 in Philadelphia


TRIVIA......what significant event in BB history is Bris Lord most known for ?



TED Z

[Golf History]

I think that it is the same image (of Magie) only colored differently and with slightly increased contrast. I say image because that includes the uniforms. The letter was also added but everything else matches up exactly.

The key is to compare the subtle shadows especially in the uniform (buttons, collar, left eyebrow, etc.)


Good eye spotting that!

[Golf History]

Oh, I forgot to answer the trivia question.


Joe Jackson trade?

[bmarlowe1]

The image is of course of Magee, who looks nothing like Bris Lord.

[FrankWakefield]

Good eye, old man. Obvious negative flip... at least obvious once pointed out.

[tedzan]

Connie Mack was so impressed with Bris Lord, so he traded Morrie Rath to Cleveland......and, then Mack
threw in Joe Jackson as part of the deal. Is this the most lop-sided trade in the history of BB, or what ?


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Looking at the actual photos of Bristol Lord,there isn't much of a resemblance at all-I'd be prone to think that it should have been a Sherry Magee card.

[ethicsprof]

great eyes, TRex.

how'd you happen to spot this after all these years of lookin'?

best,
barry

[canjond]

Makes it easier to see...

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/jon_canfield/edited.jpg

[Wite3]

Absolutely Magee...this image is from a Horner Cabinet if I recall...Lord looks nothing like this.

Joshua

[tedzan]

Thanks guys....and thanks JON for inverting the image.


Here's a link to a photo of Bristol Lord

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Bris_Lord_1883


TED Z

[bmarlowe1]

Bris Lord

[rhettyeakley]

Magie/Lord isn't the only mistake in that set either, as the Frank Baker card features a picture of Cy Seymour's Horner Studios portrait, which is also a reversed image.

Here is the Seymour original photo...
http://www.starsofthediamond.com/e254seymourny2.JPG

Here is the T208/E104/D359 Baker...
http://www.b-lauctions.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5962

[tedzan]

Numerous sources have Bris' full name as...... Bristol Robotham Lord.

But, others have Briscoe Lord.

And, then others simply have Bris.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Nice research; and, I think there is at least one more "mis-pictured" A's player in these issues. At the
recent Philly Show, my booth was adjacent to Legendary's booth. While studying their T208 set, I im-
mediately noticed that the Bris Lord image had to be Sherry Magee. I don't recall the other one I was
suspicious about. I'll have to see if I wrote down the other card's image.

These mistakes are really puzzling to me. Since, one of the better documented books on Connie Mack
refers to this Nadja set being issued shortly after the A's won the World Series in 1910. Connie and his
A's players were elated to see these cards. I would even say that Connie Mack had some influence in
the production of this 18-card set.

In any event, what is even more of a mystery to me....why wasn't Jack Coombs portrayed in this issue ?

Coombs pitched 3 complete games and won all 3.


TED Z

[rhettyeakley]

Just as reference here is a Colgan's Tin Top of Sherry Magee (featuring his Horner portrait)...
http://www.starsofthediamond.com/tintopsmagee.JPG

[FrankWakefield]

So what I'm now thinking about is some knucklehead, a hundred years ago, sorting through glass negatives, and eventually thinking to himself, "screw it, no one will ever notice if I just flip this one over"... Ted noticed. And maybe the players, their relative, and some acquaintances noticed 100 years ago.

Great attentiveness!!

[murcerfan]

http://http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009images/Item_11749_1.jpgCy Seymour even had a card in a "related set"
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009images/Item_11749_1.jpg

[murcerfan]

anothr try at image posting

[tedzan]

Hey Frank W

I know there is at least one more wrong picture on the cards of these sets besides Baker and Lord.
I still have to do some more homework.


TED Z

[tedzan]

You'll appreciate this excerpt from the book "CONNIE MACK....and the early years of baseball"....

"The NADJA Caramel Company of St Louis issued a set of eighteen cards of the World Champions.
Connie Mack is shown in a high-wing starched collar, his hair still parted in the middle. Over the
next four years, the Athletics would be featured on cards accompanying Fatima Cigarettes,
Honest Long Cut Smoking or Chewing Tobacco, and Recruit Little Cigars."
circa October 1910.


Re..FATIMA Philadelphia A's premium......when I get around to taking a photo of it, I'll post a picture.


TED Z

[Steve D]

OK, if the T206 Magee portrait actually shows Magee, then who is this on Magee's T205 and T206 batting cards? It isn't the same person.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Sherry_magee.jpg/340px-Sherry_magee.jpghttp://i.ebayimg.com/18/!BVUJ6DQCGk~$(KGrHgoH-DUEjlLlzqhLBKR6jH1WfQ~~_12.JPG

I remember an article in SCD back in the 1990s, that examined this. It was the first time I can recall seeing any mention of the similarity between the T208 Lord and T206 Magee portrait. I also remember that the SCD article said that based on the research the author did, it was determined that the Magee T206 portrait is of Lord, and therefore, the T208 Lord is the correct photo.


Steve

[bmarlowe1]

Steve D --

Both cards you posted (as well as the cards Ted Z posted) are all clearly Magee. Whoever wrote an article concluding it is Lord needs corrective lenses (as do I, but I'm wearing mine). What features in the above posted Sporting Life Bris Lord photo do you see in any of these cards ? The answer is none. As is often wisely said - you can start by comparing ears. Quoting myself regarding another bad mis-identification, "it's hard to imagine 2 male caucasions who look less alike" than Magee and Lord.

BTW - there was an earlier thread about the Lord/Magee T208

[bmarlowe1]

And furthermore :)

Going a little O/T - The T208 Cy Morgan (which looks nothing like Morgan) is really Benny Bowcock. The photo of Bowcock below left was mis-identified as Cy Morgan (and Morgan ID'd as Bowcock) in the 1904 Spalding Guide - leading to the T208 error, which was based on the Bowcock photo L-R reversed.

That same photo was later mis-identified as Red Morgan (Bos AL) in the 1907 Spalding Guide.

[bmarlowe1]

As I go for 3 in a row - you can read my article in Old Cardboard (a while back - I forget which issue) showing that the T205 Wilbur Goode [sic] card is really Ralph Good. I'm done for now.

[fkw]

Bob Lemke did a story about this exact thing in the SCD a few years ago. I was looking through some old clippings I cut from the SCD (I cut all the vintage stuff out) and saw it last week. I guess someone wrote him and told him. He also reversed the photo of the E104 and put them side by side. funny :)

[bmarlowe1]

Something like this --

[tedzan]

MARK

Great research on Cy Morgan. When I saw the T208 set at Legendary's booth in Philly, I had my
suspicions about Morgan. But, I could not find the correct image. However, I had a feeling there
were at least 3 portrait depictions in the T208 (E104 & D359) sets that were some other players.

This has been very illuminating thread....if I say so myself.

Regards,

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Excellent work, Mark.
I do remember your O C piece on Good. As Ted says..most illuminating!!!

many thanks

best,

barry

[bmarlowe1]

Barry and Ted -

It's all good fun. I should also mention that

- I was not the first person to notice that the '04 Spalding Guide photo was not Cy Morgan - another person deserves credit for that. I was able to confirm that he for sure was Bowcock.

- In that same 1903 StL AL head shot composite, Red Powell and Hunter Hill are also swapped.

Mark

[rhettyeakley]

I wanted to bump this thread because as I was looking at the T208's today I am having a hard time believing that the Jack Lapp card actually depicts Lapp. He was a fairly distinctive looking guy and while it may just be a fairly crappy rendition of Lapp it just doesn't look anything like Lapp to me. Does anybody have the photo that the Lapp T208/E104/D359 was taken from?
-Rhett

Here's a photo of Lapp: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Jack_Lapp.jpg

Here is Legendary's T208:
http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=102949&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=37

[Leon]

My Benny Bowcock T208......nabbed for a bit under $2100 when the getting was good....btw Mark, that is some great investigative work you have done. Many kudo's to you!!


http://luckeycards.com/pt208.jpg

[ethicsprof]

Rhett,
i'm with you on the Lapp.
i'm looking at the T5 I recently got from you (thanks again)
and my t222 Lapp and they sure don't look like this guy on the T208.

good eye.


best,
barry

[bmarlowe1]

Leon -
Well at least now you know who you got for $2100. :)

Benny Bowcock:

[bmarlowe1]

Rhett and Barry -
Let me respectfully and tentatively disagree - I think that is maybe just a really crappy hastily done drawing of Lapp - partly because I have decent head shots of all the A's of that era - and he is the closest to that picture. But, of course - it could be someone from another team.

[ethicsprof]

Mark,
your point is well taken and your diplomacy is most kind and refreshing!
thank you.
i have to say that a number of the 208s aren't very representative of their respective players. almost reminds me of those 'fake' e91 A,B,C cards.
i do beg forgiveness for making such a comparison since i see the 208s as
coveted cards.
208 Lapp,imho, is not representative of the 2 Lapps I have on the desk in
front of me---T5,T222.

all the best,
barry

[murcerfan]

i guess psa was so unimpressed with those t208'S that they just threw the last names on the flips......less research and trouble that way too!

Is this standard practice now?

[tedzan]

Mark

I agree with you regarding Lapp. When I started this thread with the Lord / Magee mix-up, I knew there was
at least 3 (perhaps a 4th) such wrong pictures after having seen the T208 set at the Philly Show last Sept..
My Philadelphia A's T200 premium has photographic pictures of 12 of the 18 portraits of the T208 set. Lapp is
one of them on the T200; and, it corresponds to your photo.

To summarize our findings....these 3 portraits on the E104-1, D359 and T208 cards......

Bris Lord is actually Sherry Magee

Frank Baker is actually Cy Seymour

Cy Morgan is actually Benny Bowcock


I think we "touched all the bases"......or, is there possibly a 4th portrait mix-up ?

Regards,

TED Z