T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set survey....MISSION COMPLETE

[tedzan]

In response to recent requests, I'm reprising the American Beauty 460 info I have gleaned from trying to complete this very tough
T206 sub-set.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/americanbeauty460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


There are 103 possible T206's that could've been printed with the American Beauty 460 back. However, there are always those tricky
NO-PRINTS that keep you guessing. After 4 years of searching for AB 460 cards, it appears to me that approximately 30 subjects are
NO-PRINTS. This of course is subject to revision, if additional AB 460's are found.

The AB 460 back has a Factory 42 (Durham, North Carolina) identification. These cards were issued near the end of the T206 produc-
tion run in early 1911. So, I thought it would be cool to collect this T206 sub-set.....and definitely challenging. Currently, I have 62 of
these cards, and still searching.


Listed here are the 67 confirmed AB 460 cards. The 350/460 Series subjects are listed first; and, the 460-only Series subjects follow.....


350/460 Series..................27 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series..................40 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait w/cap)


If anyone on Net54 has additional AB 460 cards that are not on this list of 67 cards, please chime in and show or tell us of your AB 460's.

Thanks very much,


TED Z

[David R]

Thanks for the great information Ted. The only one I have is the Duffy, which is already on your list.

David R.

[tedzan]

You may be interested in this....the same day (in another thread) when you asked about the AB 460 list,
a Net54 reader emailed me requesting the same.

Anyhow, are you tempted to try collecting the AB 460 cards ?

Best regards,

TED Z

[David R]

Hey Ted,

I don't think I have the patience. I am collecting the HOFers and trying to get as many different backs as I can. I have the Duffy AB 460. The only other one I came close on was a McGraw glove SGC 10 on eBay earlier this year that I think you outbid me on. I am currently looking for an AB 350 frame HOFer.

Good luck on this subset -- it's tough.

David R.

[tedzan]

David R

You are correct, I won that AB 460 card of McGraw. Of course, I did not know that I was bidding against you.

The "cryptic" bidders ID is one of ebay's features that ticks me off. I'd like to know who the other bidders are.


TED Z

[E93]

My only AB 460 is Bridwell w/cap noted above.
JimB

[cfc1909]

I have McGraw portrait with cap/sweater AB 460.

[tedzan]

Thanks for the new input, that brings us to a grand total of 70 confirmed American Beauty 460 cards.


Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I found my Doc White (pitching) with an American Beauty 460 back.

So, that brings us to a grand total of 71 confirmed American Beauty 460 cards.

And, this brings my AB 460 set's total to 63 cards.


TED Z

[tedzan]

A Net54 reader has emailed me with a Bell (pitching) with an AB 460 back.

This input increases the confirmed tally to 72 cards. I will be updating this survey later today.


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

WOW....since I have reprised this survey, there have been 7 new inputs in a little over a day. However small that might
sound, one has to appreciate that 66 confirmed AB 460 cards stood for over 4 years; and, now we have 73 confirmed.

Eventually, I expect that 47 cards in the 460-only series will be confirmed....the one exception will be Kleinow (Boston).

However, I would be surprised if many more cards beyond the current 30 from the 350/460 series were to be confirmed.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/americanbeauty460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Listed here are the 73 confirmed AB 460 cards. The 350/460 Series subjects are listed first; and, the 460-only Series subjects follow.....


350/460 Series..................30 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series..................43 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait w/cap)


If anyone on Net54 has any AB 460 cards that are not listed here, please show or tell us about them.


Thanks much for your continuing interest in these T206 surveys.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks to a Net54 reader of this thread, I have added 4 more cards to my AB 460 sub-set. Now, I have 66 cards,
and still searching.
My experience indicates that most of the tougher AB 460 cards are from the 350/460 series....e.g. Lajoie, Leach,
Wilhelm, Doc White, etc..
And, some of the tougher ones from the 460-only series are Duffy, Needham, Smith (Chi & Bos), Wheat, etc..


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abduflajleaneesmiwhewilwhi.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



OK, we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 back. Now is not the time to surrender to the Monster....let's see
how many more of the remaining 30 subjects can be confirmed ?

Thanks again for your participation in this T206 survey.


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

Just a reminder....while these 6 super-prints can be found with as many as 24 different T206 backs....
they were NOT printed with the American Beauty 460 back.

Fair warning....if you find any one of these 6 with an AB 460 back....it is a FAKE !


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/asov6superprints.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

Now, you guys are making me sound like a "genius", when I said in my initial post here that......

" There are 103 possible T206's that could've been printed with the American Beauty 460 back. However,
there are always those tricky NO-PRINTS that keep you guessing. After 4 years of searching for AB 460
cards, it appears to me that approximately 30 subjects are NO-PRINTS. "

OK, we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 back. So surprise-surprise, that does leave us with 30
cards.....and am I a genius ?......I say NO.
Just a lucky guess, or perhaps an educated guess. In any event, I think there are more AB 460 cards to
be discovered. So, let's see how many more of the remaining 30 subjects you guys can confirm ?

Thanks again for your participation in this T206 survey.



T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

Let's give this survey one more go around. We have 73 cards confirmed with the American Beauty 460 back.
This time I have posted the list of cards we are looking that have not been confirmed.


350/460 Series......cards needed with AB 460

Bender (no trees)..............HOF
M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Griffith (bat)......................HOF
Johnson (pitching)..............HOF
Joss (pitching)...................HOF
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing).................HOF
CYoung (glove)..................HOF


460-only Series......cards needed with AB 460

Frill
Herzog (Boston)
Kleinow (Boston)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)


Thanks again for taking the time and effort to check your T206 collections for any of these cards.


TED Z

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Hi Ted,

I was curious and maybe this has been covered but I have a Seymour throwing 350 no frame. Are there 350 and 460 versions with no frame. The only card I have ever had with 350 and 460 backs are the Manning pitching, I still own the 460 but don't remember if the 350 was framed or not.

Lee

[tedzan]

1st......Re..Seymour (throwing) has not yet been confirmed with an AB 460.

2nd......Your Manning (pitching) would have been an AB 350 No Frame (NF).


Lee

To my knowledge there are only 20 of the 55 cards from the 350/460 series
that are found with both the AB 350NF and AB 460NF backs. I will list them
in a subsequent post.


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

As requested......

All T206's from the 350/460 series with American Beauty backs were printed without the stylized FRAME
that is found on the American Beauty (AB) cards in the 350-only series. Of the 55 cards in the 350/460
series, some are found with AB 350....some with AB 460....and, 18 subjects are confirmed with both the
AB 350 and AB 460 backs. Those 18 are listed here.


...................Fall/Winter 1910............................Spring 1911

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
...................Factory 25, VA............................Factory 42, N.C.


Here are the 18 - T206's that have been confirmed with both of the No Frame American Beauty backs.

Burch (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Wagner (bat/right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


If anyone here has any new AB inputs that we can add to this survey, please show or tell us. Check-out
your T206's and compare them with the lists posted in this thread.

Thanks much.

TED Z

[tedzan]

One T206 guy with an American Beauty 350 (no frame) back, that you wont find with an American Beauty 460 back, is
Simon Nichols (with bat). Although, this card is classified as a 350-only subject, it was actually intended as a 350/460
candidate. My theory is.....that American Lithographic did not extend this card into the 460 series since Nichols retired
from the major leagues just prior to the release of the 460 series cards.

If someone here has an alternative explanation for this T206 front/back anomaly, please present it ?



<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abt206nichollsbat.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



Recall that we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 backs....so, when you get a chance, check-out this wantlist
and see if you have any of those cards in your T206 collection.


350/460 Series......cards needed with AB 460

Bender (no trees)..............HOF
M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Griffith (bat)......................HOF
Johnson (pitching)..............HOF
Joss (pitching)...................HOF
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing).................HOF
CYoung (glove)..................HOF


460-only Series......cards needed with AB 460

Frill
Herzog (Boston)
Kleinow (Boston)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)


Thanks much, guys.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Since this thread disappeared below the radar screen, I have acquired 2 more for my set. Only need 5
more to go....that is assuming that the 73 confirmed AB 460 cards complete this Tobacco run.
Any help with these 5 for my set is deeply appreciated.

Baker
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Oldring (bat)



To date, we have confirmed 73 cards with the AB 460 backs. So, when you get a chance, check-out
this list to see if you have any of these cards in your T206 collection with an AB 460 back.


350/460 Series......cards needed with AB 460

Bender (no trees)..............HOF
M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Griffith (bat)......................HOF
Johnson (pitching)..............HOF
Joss (pitching)...................HOF
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing).................HOF
CYoung (glove)..................HOF


460-only Series......cards needed with AB 460

Frill
Herzog (Boston)
Kleinow (Boston)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)


Thanks everyone for your help in conducting this survey.

TED Z

[tedzan]

A Net54 reader has reported a CYoung (glove) with an AB 460 back.

Before I add it to the list it, I will check it out.


TED Z

[tedzan]

A Net54 reader emailed me with a possible sighting of a CYoung (glove) with an AB 460 back. At this point, I cannot
accept it as a confirmed input until I see it, or a 2nd one is reported. This reminds me to introduce the following rule.

Subjects in the 350/460 series that have been confirmed with Red HINDU backs are NOT found with AB 460 backs......
these 2 backs are mutually exclusive in this series of 55 cards (Note, there may be one or two exceptions to this rule).


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bredhindudonmcg.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



List of 350/460 Series cards still NEEDED with AB 460 backs....**annotated cards have been confirmed with Red HINDU
backs; and, I do NOT expect these cards to be found with AB 460 backs.

Bender (no trees)...................**
M. Brown (Chicago)................**
Davis (A's)............................**
Donlin (bat)...........................**
Doolan (bat)..........................**
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)........................**
Doyle (bat)...........................**
Griffith (bat)..........................**
Johnson (pitching)..................**
Joss (pitching).......................**
Konetchy (glove low)..............**
Magee (bat)..........................**
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees).............**
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)..........................**
Seymour (throwing)................**
Stahl (glove).........................**
Street (catching)...................**
Sweeney (fielding)..................**
Willis (throwing).....................**
CYoung (glove)......................**


You are welcome to prove me wrong regarding this "mutual exclusivity" rule......or, reinforce this rule. Either way, have
fun checking out your T206's "one more once".

OK, you Jazz aficiandos....what great Jazz artist would encore his riff with the lyrics...."one more once" ?



TED Z

[drdduet]

Ted,

Great stuff, you certainly have pulled out the monster's teeth.

[4815162342]

Michel Camilo

[tedzan]

Therefore, if my above analysis is correct, we should expect to eventually find the following 5 cards with AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460 backs.....if we do not first find them with Red HINDU backs.

My experience shows that the AB 460 back is very underrated. It is much scarcer than most T206 collectors realize.
Further reinforcement of this fact is, that no AMERICAN BEAUTY (Factory 42) cigarette packs have been found.



.................................................. ..................Factory 42
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bredhindudonmcg.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



350/460 series cards........

Dougherty (arm in air)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


These 5 could possibly be No Prints. On the other hand, perhaps someone on Net54 (or a reader of Net54) may just
surprise us by reporting any one of these 5 with an AB 460 back ?

Thanks every one for your efforts in these type of surveys.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

I checked my AB pack and it's fact.25 not 42---just throwin' a li'l late night
corroboration your way.
By the way, i do like ole Doc Duet's language of your 'pulling the monster's teeth'.

all the best,
barry

[tedzan]

Indeed, Darren is a cool dude regarding all aspects of "The Monster".

He's the guy who convinced me some years ago that the 1910 COUPON cards are indeed T206's.
Thanks Darren.


Regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

i'm not surprised! those Louisiana fellas know their cards and certainly had quite a few unique types come out of that one state!

alll the best to you, ole buddy

barry

[caramelcard]

.

[tedzan]

Gee, what happened to the Net54 "Jazz buffs" ?

I would of thought Barry S, or Jodi B, or any one else, would have already answered my Trivia question in post #21 ?

TED Z

[Peter W Thomas]

Ted would that be the "Count"?

[drdduet]

Count Basie, that is

[Leon]

Indeed, Darren is a cool dude regarding all aspects of "The Monster".

He's the guy who convinced me some years ago that the 1910 COUPON cards are indeed T206's.
Thanks Darren.


Regards ole buddy,

TED Z

I too could be convinced if they were at least on the same kind of paper stock, which they aren't. They are 100% different than ANY other T206 stock. That, combined with Burdick's designation, is proof enough (for me) that T213-1 should never ever be considered a T206.....but this is a debate that will go on for a long time...All in fun...best regards

[barrysloate]

Ted- I hadn't looked at this thread in a while. If I did I would have told you Count Basie, as others have.

Did you find the Home Run Baker with red Hindu back? It was my November 16, 2006 auction, lot #50.

[ullmandds]

While I'm not totally disagreeing with you, Leon...if paper stock were the smoking gun...then maybe e97 b/w's/proofs shouldn't even be classified as e97's...they should be a totally separate issue...e-unc? I'm sure there are others. There will always be the t213-1/t206 debate...among others...hell...we need issues to bicker about...if everything were known...we'd have nothing to talk about?

[tedzan]

Thanks, I have yet to find it....and now that you informed of it, I can stop searching.

Regards,

TED Z

[Leon]

While I'm not totally disagreeing with you, Leon...if paper stock were the smoking gun...then maybe e97 b/w's/proofs shouldn't even be classified as e97's...they should be a totally separate issue...e-unc? I'm sure there are others. There will always be the t213-1/t206 debate...among others...hell...we need issues to bicker about...if everything were known...we'd have nothing to talk about?

Hey Pete
For the record no one that has any hobby experience considers the E97's as proofs. It's absurd to think they are, imo. Since they have the same exact poses I consider them a subset of E97, maybe E97-2. I also think they could actually be a whole different set but since there is precedence in other sets (such as E254 "proofs") I leave them as E97. For the record my feelings on E254 are the same as E97. Both of the E sets that are "proofs" have blank backs. The T213-1 set has a different back, though the caligraphy is similar to other of T206, and I just can't make that leap. There is no Coupon T206 and, if I am not mistaking, the factory and district are different than any other also. (I haven't looked that up though) It's a good debate......and your are right. Without these nuances what would we talk about?

[Dustanh1]

I believe someone on here was selling a Baker with a Red Hindu back maybe 5-6 months ago....might be the same one Barry is referencing.

Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say thanks to Ted for another interesting thread. There is so much information on this set, and it is nice to read about it little by little.

I don't have anything to contribute to this thread, as I do not own any AB backs yet. 'Tis my goal for the first of the year though.

[tedzan]

Good to hear from you Peter.....you got it....The Count from Red Bank, NJ......Count Basie.


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Peter Thomas first, then Darren and Barry all guessed it, it was Count Basie.

"April in Paris....Chestnuts in Blossom....Holiday tables under the trees....
April in Paris....this is the feeling....no one can ever reprise"


Thanks guys....this brings back some great memories.
TED Z

[toppcat]

Peter Thomas first, then Darren and Barry all guessed it, it was Count Basie.

"April in Paris....Chestnuts in Blossom....Holiday tables under the trees....
April in Paris....this is the feeling....no one can ever reprise"


Thanks guys....this brings back some great memories.
TED Z

Good stuff but I prefer his Atomic Band, just after....I may be the only guy left under 50 who likes the Kid From Red Bank.

[barrysloate]

Try to catch Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong doing "April in Paris" together...it was never done better.

[toppcat]

Try to catch Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong doing "April in Paris" together...it was never done better.

IF you like Ella, this might interest you: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002IRBGYC/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00000475U&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1A7R823921RD00AE0RKZ

I may pick it up myself after the holidays.

[barrysloate]

Dave- there was an extensive article about those recordings in this past Sunday's New York Times. They sound like classic performances.

[tedzan]

Gee, I hijacked my own thread with the Jazz trivia. Now, let's switch this AB 460 train back onto the main track.

There is no doubt about Baker with a Red HINDU back, so now I'm checking out Baker with an AB 460 back.

Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I'll be back Monday after the Philly Show....and, I hope to have acquired some more AB 460 cards for my sub-set.

Also, I'm hoping that you guys might have some more AB 460 inputs for this thread.


Thanks,

T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

I'm reprising this thread to correct the entry of Home Run Baker. This card indeed exists with a Red HINDU back. Therefore, I was skeptical of
previous data that showed it with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back. Upon further investigation, I found out that Baker has only been confirmed
with an AB 350 back....and, not an AB 460 back.

Here is the new UPDATED list....we are back to 70 confirmed AB 460 subjects......


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/americanbeauty460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



350/460 Series..................27 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series..................43 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait w/cap)


If anyone on Net54 has any AB 460 cards that are not listed here, please show or tell us about them.


Thanks much

TED Z

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab350ab460bks.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


By applying the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 vs Red HINDU "mutually exclusive rule", we have narrowed down the
number of cards still needed to be confirmed with the AB 460 back to these 10 cards......

Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
Frill
Herzog
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Merkle (throwing)
Murphy (bat)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


Please check out your T206's to see if you have any of these with an AB 460 back.

Thanks,

TED Z

[cfc1909]

my AB 460 list

1. Jennings one hand
2. Ford
3. Crandall
4. Latham
5. Lake ST. Louis no ball
6. McGraw glove at hip
7. McGraw cap
8. Leach bending over
9. Meyers portrait
10. Payne
11. Pfeffer
12. Sheckard
13. Gandil

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Ted,

that list of ten is very similar to my list of Cycle 460s getting narrowed down. I do not believe I have have seen of known of more than 2 of each of the Cycle 460 copies of those 10 ABs listed. Any chance that some of these cards got double printed or 2 different series?

[cfc1909]

not sure about Herzog AB 460 but I am sure he exist in Cycle 460

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


The CYCLE 460 cards were printed and issued (late 1910) prior to the AB 460 cards (1911). The CYCLE 460 backs
are found on most of the 109 possible subjects. Whereas, to date, we have only confirmed 70 of the possible 103
AB 460 cards. I don't expect that we will find too many more AB 460 cards. The reason being, that the Red HINDU
cards (issued in 1911) appear to complement the AB 460 cards in the total run of the 350/460 and 460-only series
subjects.

Why American Litho. printed these 2 backs in this manner is a mystery to me. Do you guys have any ideas on this ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Are you saying that from your research you think a card like Herzog will only be possible with a Red Hindu or AB 460 back?

[cfc1909]

that is correct Tim -not both.

[tedzan]

To date, Herzog (Boston) has not been found with either AB 460 or Red HINDU.

Anyhow, Herzog is a card in the 460-only series, and may be found with both AB 460 and Red HINDU
backs This "mutually exclusive rule" does not apply to the 48 cards in the 460-only series.

FYI....The 460-only series has its particular "mutually exclusive rule", that is between LENOX and Red
HINDU brands.

The Herzog card you are interested is found with a LENOX back....therefore, Herzog will NOT be found
with a Red HINDU back.



Jim....ole buddy....sorry to disagree with you.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

I keep throwing in the 460 only cards-I did that the other day with the Crandall when we were talking about this rule. I have to watch that...:eek:

I have Herzog with Lenox and Cycle 460-no Red Hindu or AB 460.

[tedzan]

Since Herzog (Boston) has been confirmed with a LENOX back, Herzog will not exist with a Red HINDU back.

Hence, there is a chance that Herzog was printed with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back.

I haven't seen one, yet....but, that doesn't mean it's a No-Print.

The hunt continues......with the exception of Kleinow (Boston), I expect that eventually we will find all 47
cards in the 460-only series with AB 460 backs.


TED Z

[Mikehealer]

Ted
Thanks for the post on the Lenox/Red Hindu information. Lots of help.

[tedzan]

These kind of "rules of the (tobacco) road" are very handy for several reasons, two of which are......

It takes the guesswork out, when searching for certain front/back combos since you know if they exist or a No-Print.

Questionable front/back combos (re-backed cards) are quickly identified.


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



OK, one more round in trying to find the missing AB 460 cards. There are 28 subjects from the 350/460 series
that have not been reported with the AB 460 back. Applying the AB 460 vs Red HINDU "mutually exclusive" rule,
we narrow down the number of cards from the 350/460 series that possibly were printed with the AB 460 back
to these 6 cards. See if you have any of them......

Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


And, from the 460-only series 43 cards have been reported with the AB 460 back, these 4 are still needed......

Frill
Herzog
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)


Please check out your T206's one more time to see if you have any of these 10 cards with an AB 460 back.

Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Deleted

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



Thanks to Jim Rivera, I now have Conroy (bat) in my AB 460 sub-set. I still need the following 3 cards
to have a complete run of the 70 confirmed (to date) AB 460 cards.

Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Jennings (two hands)
Oldring (bat)



Now, there still remains a good probability that any (or all) of the following 10 cards will be found with
an AB 460 back


From 350/460 series

Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


From the 460-only series

Frill
Herzog
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)


Any help confirming any of these 10 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.

Also, I would appreciate any help finding the above 3 cards for my set.


Thanks,

TED Z

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

The PSA Population Report reports one example of Herzog (Boston) with American Beauty. It is a PSA 1.

Since Herzog (Boston) is a 460-only subject, this example would have to be AB 460.

We all know PSA makes its share of labeling mistakes, but it seems unlikely here.

Merry Christmas.

Scot

[batsballsbases]

Ted,
Im really not a T collector but I was going thru a box and found these 2 cards. Cobb is very rough 460 back. And A card I didnt see on your lists Mcginnity Newark,With an american beauty 350 back with a frame? I posted 2 scans . Al

[tedzan]

Al

Thanks for your post. This survey lists only the AB 460 cards. There is another survey that we did for the
AB 350 (frame) cards (in which your McGinnity is listed).

If you would like to sell or trade your Cobb with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back, please email me at.......

tedzan11@comcast.net


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks very much....Herzog makes it 71 confirmed AB 460 cards, to date.

Indeed, Herzog (Boston) is an AB 460......and, that leaves us with only 3 remaining 460-only series subjects to
be confirmed.

I'm pretty certain we will find these 3 (Frill, Merkle and Murray) eventually. As for the 10 (or so) 350/460 series
subjects, I'm not very certain we will find them.

Scot......a very MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and your family.


TED Z

[batsballsbases]

Ted Email sent. Al

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



From the 460-only series......

Murray (portrait) has been reported with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back. This card raises
the number of confirmed AB 460 cards to 72.

Still unconfirmed from this series are these two......

Frill
Merkle (throwing)

However, It's my guess that Frill wont be found with an AB 460 back, since he was sold to
Jersey City (Eastern League) on July 13, 1910. The AB 460 cards were printed circa 1911.

Merkle exists with a UZIT back; consequently, there is a low probability of finding Merkle
with an AB 460 back. Only 5 cards (of 48) from the 460-only series exist with both AB 460
and UZIT backs.


Now, regarding cards in 350/460 series........

There still remains a good probability that any (or all) of the following 6 cards will be found
with an AB 460 back

Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)


Any help confirming any of these 6 (or 8) cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

TED Z

[Blunder19]

Figured I would show the cobbin its new SGC holder.. Im happy enough was there for it to get a 10... SGC said its the 1st cobb batt off AB 460 graded with them.. happy to add it to my slowly growing collection...
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/Cobbfront-2.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/blunder19/Cobbback-2.jpg

[batsballsbases]

Hi Jamie,
Please enjoy the card and Im glad it was able to at least get a grade!

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/americanbeauty460b.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



Hey guys....still looking for these 8 cards with AB 460 backs.


Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
Frill
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Merkle (throwing)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)

Any help confirming any of these 8 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I am reprising this thread, one more once......I fully expect that we are near completion of this rare T206 sub-set, thanks
to 3 1/2 months of responses and based upon the mutually exclusive factors (of T-brands in the 460 series) that've been
presented here. We have accounted for 72 - AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards. So, we are left with 31 subjects that appear
to be AB 460 "no-prints".


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


UPDATED list......72 confirmed AB 460 cards


350/460 Series..................27 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series..................45 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


One more go around....If any Net54er poster's, or reader's have any AB 460 cards that are not listed here,
please show and/or tell us about them. Or, please email me at......
tedzan11@comcast.net


Thanks much,

TED Z

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



A Net54 reader has reported Merkle (throwing) with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back. This increases the AB 460 sub-set
tally to 73 cards.

In my opinion, these "dudes" are much tougher than their current ranking in the T206 "back scarcity" list.

Still lookiing for more AB 460 cards.....Thanks in advance, for your responses.


TED Z

[quinnsryche]

Here's my only AB 460.

[tedzan]

Tony

Thanks for posting your AB 460 Ford.

TED Z

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">




Hey guys....we now have 73 cards confirmed with AB 460 backs; and, we are still looking for these 7 cards
with AB 460 backs.


Dougherty (arm in air)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
Frill
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Reulbach (no glove)

Any help confirming any of these 7 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

TED Z

[B O'Brien]

Nothing new here, just a chance to show the three that I currently have, two of three from the Board. AB 460 Marquard, AB 460 McGraw Glove, and Mr. Camnitz.
Bob

<a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/?action=view&current=T206AB460MarquardFront.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206AB460MarquardFront.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 AB 460 Marquard Front"></a><a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/?action=view&current=T206AB460MarquardBack.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206AB460MarquardBack.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 AB 460 Marquard Back"></a><a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/?action=view&current=T206AB460McGrawFront.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206AB460McGrawFront.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 AB 460 McGraw Front"></a><a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/?action=view&current=T206AB460McGrawBack.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/T206AB460McGrawBack.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 AB 460 McGraw Back"></a><a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/Howie%20Camnitz%20Cards/?action=view&current=T206AB460CamnitzFront.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/Howie%20Camnitz%20Cards/T206AB460CamnitzFront.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 AB 460 Camnitz Arm Front"></a><a href="http://s588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/Howie%20Camnitz%20Cards/?action=view&current=T206AB460CamnitzBack.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss329/upperhandisforemost/Howie%20Camnitz%20Cards/T206AB460CamnitzBack.jpg" border="0" alt="T206 AB 460 Camnitz Arm Back"></a>

[tedzan]

Thanks for posting your AB 460's.

That is a great looking Harry Camnitz card.


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Show us some more of your AB 460 cards


Always looking for more AB 460 cards.


TED Z

[Mikehealer]

Nice group Ted, that Smith is nice front/back combonation.
These are my only two.

[tedzan]

Thanks for showing us your AB 460's.

I find it very interesting that certain subjects are seen quite often, while others in this series are extremely rare.

The most often see are......

Burch (fielding)
Devore
Ford
McGraw (glove at hip)


TED Z

[frohme]

What else? Not at the level of Bob's Camnitz or the other nice cards in this post, but 4 of the 5 AB460 Pirates.

Anyone have a spare Camnitz hands over head?

http://photos.imageevent.com/gspinf/earlypittsburghcards/tobaccoissues/t206byadvertisingback/large/American%20Beauty%20-%20460%20Subjects.jpg

[B O'Brien]

Mike,
That Howie took the ride to SGC today, if it comes back like I hope it will, we can work out a deal. That one doesn't really blend in with my little box of beaters.

I like that, henceforth, the collection shall be know as "Bob and his little box O beaters". That has a nice ring to it!

Thanks,
Bob
upperhandisforemost@yahoo.com

[ethicsprof]

Ted, ole buddy
i've exchanged some recent emails with Bill Brown re: super set and found out he just now has 100 different ABs.
have his data been coming your way?
just checking.
best,
barry

[tedzan]

I have checked with Bill. No new inputs to add to the 192 cards in the AB 350 (frame) series, nor the 72 cards in the AB 460 series.

Thanks for asking, ole buddy.

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

I had a feelin' that you had but wanted to make sure---after i heard Bill B.
say he had 100 now!!
great work, Ted.
all the best, ole friend

barry

[tedzan]

Hey ole buddy, you have to keep checking up on me. I depend on you to keep me honest :)

Here's some more AB 460's

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/ab460cranlajburmcgraw.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

Let's see some more of these AB 460 cards.

Also, looking forward to seeing some of you this weekend at the Philly Show. Jim Rivera and I
will be set-up at Booth # 408.


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aab460array12.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


TED Z

[cfc1909]

what no Conroy with the bat AB 460? :D

[tedzan]

Conroy will be in the next group of AB 460 cards.

Thanx ole buddy.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Well, I've either cornered the market on most of these AB 460 cards....or, they are much tougher
to find than most of us have thought they were.

I'm reprising this thread in hopes of finding a few more AB 460 cards.

Thanks for participating,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey Jim, since you asked, here's the Conroy and 5 more AB 460 cards........


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab460codemenepfwh.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

TED Z

[tedzan]

Six more AB 460 cards

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab460bahulaovstta.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

TED Z

[tedzan]

We have a new input to add to the list of confirmed AB 460 cards....."double-O". Orval Overall (yellow sky) makes it the 74th AB 460.

Although, I've been searching for this one for 4 years, I predicted that Overall would eventually appear with an AB 460 back. It is a
350/460 card that exists with a UZIT back. And, if you recall in one of my earlier posts that I noted that 350/460 series T206's were
printed with both AB 460 and UZIT backs.

It is really a great feeling when you are proven correct on certain aspects of this Monster, for you begin to think that perhaps you've
got the Monster by its "horns".


T-Rex TED

[tedzan]

With the latest discovery of "double-O", we now have accounted for 74 - AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards.
So, we are left with 29 subjects that are possible AB 460 "No-Prints".

Orval Overall (yellow sky) with an AB 460 back.

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ab460overallstad.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



UPDATED list......74 confirmed AB 460 cards


350/460 Series..................28 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series..................46 cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


If any Net54er poster's, or reader's have any AB 460 cards that are not listed here, please show and tell
us about them. Or, please email me at......

tedzan11@comcast.net


Your inputs are greatly appreciated,

TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
Nice Overall..... He is one of the tough AB 460's or I would already have a copy.... Congrats.... Be well Brian



PS I need to read thru all of the "rare back" threads that you and Jim have started.... It appears that the number of back collectors has increased a ton since we started posting on the board...

[FUBAR]

That overall is a great card. When i do start my T206 collection, those are the types i want, nice eye appeal cards.

I would guess the back collectors have increased as it is somewhat easier then the 525 cards of the set...

I know when i start, it will be a few select cards based on who the player is, a set of backs, and then cards with great eye appeal. Im not even going to attempt the 525 unless the lottery fairy visits

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">




Hey guys....we now have 74 cards confirmed with AB 460 backs; and, we are still looking for these 6 cards
with AB 460 backs. However, as I see it (and explain it) 5 of them were not printed with an AB 460 back.


Dougherty (arm in air).......possible Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding).... ?
John Frill.........................reassigned to Jersey City (Jul 1910), therefore most likely an AB 460 No Print
McIntyre (Brkln & Chi).......exists with Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print
Murphy (bat)...................possible Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print
Reulbach (no glove)..........possible Broad Leaf 460, therefore an AB 460 No Print

Any help confirming any of these 6 cards with AB 460 backs is greatly appreciated. Let's see if you can prove
me wrong ?


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abcigpackt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Net54 reader's have emailed me with confirmed inputs of Dougherty (arm in air), Elberfeld (Wash-fielding), McIntyre (Brooklyn &
Chicago), Murphy (bat), and Reulbach (no glove) with BROAD LEAF 460 backs. Therefore, applying my "mutually exclusive" rules
for cards in the 350/460 series (as these 5 are), I do not expect to find any of these 5 cards with AB 460 backs.

As for John Frill, since he was reassigned from the Highlanders to Jersey City (July 1910), I imagine that his card is most likely an
AB 460 No Print. As, the AB 460 cards were printed in the Spring of 1911.

We've confirmed that there are 74 cards printed with AB 460 backs; and, I feel 99% confident that this is a complete run. As a
consequence of this survey we now know that there are certain correlations between 4 of the rare T206 backs. It is apparent
to me that the AB 460 and UZIT cards were printed concurrently (circa 1911), as the fronts of these two backs exactly coincide.

Furthermore, the BROAD LEAF 460 cards are from the 350/460 series and they share the exact fronts with the Red HINDU cards.

Finally, it has become obvious that cards in the 350/460 series with AB 460 and UZIT backs are mutually exclusive with the cards
with BL 460 and Red HINDU backs.

Understanding these front/back combo patterns are very meaningful to avid collectors of T206 sub-sets, player and/or team col-
lectors, etc., as they remove the guesswork in search of certain T206's. Also, in this era of re-backed T206's, one can instantly
determine if a front/back combo is legitimate by having this specific knowledge.

This has been a great 5-month ride. I want to thank all of you, who have contributed to this on-going survey these past 5 months.

TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted great work. Really enjoyed this thread. :)

[tedzan]

Thanks guy....we have the "MONSTER" by its horns.... :)

Best regards,

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

ted,
although the monster is your elder by a bit more than a quarter of a century,
you have shown him well that 'youth' has the muscle to hold him by the
horns!!!
congrats, ole friend.
best,
barry

[sreader3]

Ted,

Your AB460-Uzit conformance rule, BL460-Red Hindu conformance rule and AB460-Uzit / BL460-Red Hindu mutual exclusivity rule each represent a significant breakthrough.

Reminds me of Einstein's three 1905 papers on the photoelectric effect, special relativity and Brownian motion.

Okay maybe not quite, but really great work, my friend!

Scot

[tedzan]

My, oh my....Scot

You are joshin' about my "relativity to Einsteinian" theories :) ?

However, if you akined me to Thomas Edison (my hero), I would be accepting of that as quite a high honor.
How many people know that Edison inadvertently was the first man to measure electronic current, while he
toiled with his light bulb invention ?

Where would this world of electronics be.....if Edison's experimentation back in 1880 with "electron motion"
emitted from metallic conductors within a glass enclosed vacuum.....had not occurred ? ?

Anyhow, my friend, I really appreciate your very kind words. Your "Inside T206" book has been very influen-
cial in my better understanding of this set....that many of us affectionally refer to as "The Monster".

Best regards,


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

Smartly done!

Now let me ask a question: Does finding 74 AB460's mess with your sheet size theory? If they were all single printed, we'd have two spares (6 sheets + 2) hanging out at 12 cards across a sheet. Do you think some were double printed? Did they squeeze more than 12 on the sheet if they planned on the cards being more narrow? 13 cards across would presumably yield 78 cards.

[ullmandds]

these are my only 3 AB's...I thought I had a 350 no frame...wonder where it went?

[refz]

nicely done congrats!

[cfc1909]

1615116152

not sure about AB 460 but Cycle 460 Frill does exist-also it is factory 25 not 42 but he did get printed with a 460 back

[tedzan]

the CYCLE 460 cards were printed in the Fall/Winter of 1910. Therefore, I am not surprised that this front/back combo
exists.

The American Beauty 460 cards were inserted in AB cigarette packs at Factory #42 in the Spring of 1911. This was at
least 8 months after Frill was back in the Eastern League.


TEDZ

[Northviewcats]

Hey Ted,

There was an American Beauty 460 Overall with yellow background that just was sold on eBay. I'm not sure but I think it was one of the cards that you were looking for on your list of unconfirmed 460s. Here is the link.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140393102997&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT

Best wishes,

Joe

[FrankWakefield]

The only American Beauty 460 that I still have... maybe on of the tougher ones.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/CobbAB460.jpghttp://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/CobbAB460back.jpg

[tedzan]

Frank

Very nice Cobb....regarding how tough this is with an AB 460 back, I would rank it as medium-tough. From my experience
in putting together this sub-set, there are 3 levels of scarcity....very tough, medium tough, and not so tough. Perhaps, I
will post a list of the cards that fall into these three categories of scarcity in a subsequent post.


Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you, Ted.

I'd like to see a breakdown of American Beauty backs, series, frames, and difficulty. In an ideal world we could get Scot R. to revise or revisit his great work, or at least add an appendix that incorporates what you've done with cards by back.

That image up there with the cigarette and card sticking out of the pack, what's the middle line printed on the cigarette paper, between American Beauty and U.S.A.?

[tedzan]

The printing on each cigarette in this American Beauty pack is:

" American Beauty
The American Tobacco Co.
U. S. A. "


Best regards,

TED Z

[cfc1909]

nice Cobb Frank...:D

[tedzan]

I have received several emails asking me if I won the rare AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 Orval Overall on ebay.

I did win this card with less than 1 second to go. My "counter-snipe" system worked perfect. Someone placed a snipe bid
of $176.01 in the last second. But, I still won it, with less than 1 second to go. Click on this link to check-out the bidding.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140393102997

I'm proud of my system....it has "out-sniped" the snipers for me 14 out of 16 times this past year. That's an 87% success
rate....not too bad.


TED Z

[Northviewcats]

Hi Ted,

Just for your information I was the underbidder on that auction and if I had to lose the card to an anti-snipe system that I'm glad it was yours.

Best wishes,

Joe

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you, Jim. And congratulations, Ted. Yours will be a good home for that Overall card.

[tedzan]

I'm sorry, it was you that I beat out for this card. All we see is ebay's cryptic bidder ID's. I hate ebay's "cryptic-ized"
bidder's list.

I don't have a software type of anti-snipe system, just a "Ted Z system" that is unsophisticated, but quite effective.
Nonetheless, I was very surprised that I beat your bid in the very last second. My system has not been that precise
in my past 14 successful winning bids.


Best regards and hope to see you in Cooperstown, as usual this summer.

TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Frank W.

great looking Cobb AB.
i don't see many of those!!!
and congrats Ted on inventing the Zanidakisean counter-snipe system.


best,
barry