View Full Version : Card that has appreciated the most in value in last 20 years?
ullmandds
10-12-2009, 06:26 PM
I have been collecting exclusively vintage bb cards for about 20 years now. It's amazing to look back at what cards "used" to cost...as most of you often do...and we often discuss. 20 years ago...caramel cards got no respect(like the twins) and cost very little, comparatively. Strip cards...fahget about it...to me they were such crap I didn't even want them.
In your opinions...what 1 card/card type has appreciated the most...% wise...in the last 20 -30 years or so.
My guess is it's a joe jackson card...E90-1...ugly and way overvalued! What do y'all think.
barrysloate
10-12-2009, 06:40 PM
1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth wasn't very valuable 20 years ago. Look at it today.
T210 Joe Jackson didn't sell for very much.
chiprop
10-12-2009, 07:39 PM
d304s, t208s, Big Heads, rare backs, post cards...
Ok, lets start by breaking out the $100K cards and then narrowing it down. There's the T206 Wagner - how much was it worth about 30 years ago? I think in the $10K range. Bu then when you think about the Balt News Ruth and T210 Jackson, those cards were under a grand and in a move of percentages that means some outrageous percent increases.
I think trying to select a set for this categorey will be interesting. Someone already mentioned D304, nice pick. I suppose you could try and throw in the T210 but that's tough because that set is near impossible to complete (all series). What about Zeenuts? I bet there are a few years that have skyrocketed.
Interesting question - for those of us that collected back then it makes you want to PUKE, thinking what we could have had back then so cheap! Ok, I'm still happy with having all the collecting memories... it just would have been nice to have a "whale tale" (or two).
The superstar (ala Cobb and Jackson) T5 Pinkerton Cabinets have zoomed up there in recent years.
Theoldprofessor
10-13-2009, 06:04 AM
My Diamond Stars Willis Hudlin? Nah ...
bcbgcbrcb
10-13-2009, 06:35 AM
Boston Garters - especially Joe Jackson?
tedzan
10-13-2009, 07:02 AM
Add the E90-1 Joe Jackson to this mix.
In the mid to late 1980's an Ex card could be bought for less than $200.
After the movies "Eight Men Out" (1988) and "Field of Dreams" (1989), all Shoeless Joe Jackson cards
increased significantly in price. Nowadays, they are going for $20,000 ! !
An appreciation factor of 100 to 1.
TED Z
Peter_Spaeth
10-13-2009, 07:47 AM
Jackson valuations are in my opinion quite disproportionate to his accomplishments. Of course there is an explanation for this, the Black Sox and the "what if" questions had he completed his career, and the fact that he appears on relatively few cards. Still, on the theory that one can only judge a player by his actual achievements, here are the batters he is most comparable to statistically:
Compare Stats to Similars
Pete Browning (878)
Elmer Flick (869) *
Riggs Stephenson (854)
Earle Combs (853) *
Tip O'Neill (844)
Baby Doll Jacobson (840)
Joe Vosmik (839)
Ross Youngs (826) *
Bibb Falk (826)
John Stone (821)
Not exactly elite company.
ullmandds
10-13-2009, 07:50 AM
What abut strip cards...w514 Joe Jackson for example. As Ted stated...eight man out...field of dreams has caused his cards to take off like a saturn missile. Joe Jackson strip card...maybe worth $5 20+ years ago...now sell in the thousands...that's quite a multiple!
Jackson valuations are in my opinion quite disproportionate to his accomplishments. Of course there is an explanation for this, the Black Sox and the "what if" questions had he completed his career, and the fact that he appears on relatively few cards. Still, on the theory that one can only judge a player by his actual achievements, here are the batters he is most comparable to statistically:
Peter - are you comparing career stats or average season stats? Because his career was cut short...
Don't get me wrong - his card value is certainly bolstered by the Black-Sox mystique, but he was one of the elite players of his day with a .356 career average.
brianp-beme
10-13-2009, 07:59 AM
How about the effect that Net54 has had upon certain cards? One card that comes to my mind is the 1911 Zeenut horizontal card of Halla. 6 or 7 years ago this was just another Zeenut common, perhaps a $15-30 card, but because of its exposure on this site it skyrocketed to where it is $1000-$2000+ card.
Brian
Peter_Spaeth
10-13-2009, 08:00 AM
That is from baseball reference, career stats. Obviously he would compare much more favorably on a per season basis, but my opinion is that a career is the more important yardstick.
That is from baseball reference, career stats. Obviously he would compare much more favorably on a per season basis, but my opinion is that a career is the more important yardstick.
This is also from Baseball-Reference - it compares his stats through age 30 (when he was banned) with other's through age 30:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_bat.cgi?I=jacksjo01:Joe%20Jackson&st=int&compage=30&age=30
prewarsports
10-13-2009, 08:49 AM
Cards of the Black Sox players (excluding Joe Jackson) were commons until right about 20 years ago and even Jackson sold on par with other stars and Hall of Famers but not anywhere near the levels he gets now. That means you could pick up Zeenuts of Lefty Williams and others for a couple of bucks. I dont think you can beat those percentages.
Cards of the Black Sox players (excluding Joe Jackson) were commons until right about 20 years ago and even Jackson sold on par with other stars and Hall of Famers but not anywhere near the levels he gets now. That means you could pick up Zeenuts of Lefty Williams and others for a couple of bucks. I dont think you can beat those percentages.
That seems to be the common conclusion and makes sense as the Black-Sox research and movies have driven up the value. Removing the Black-Sox form the equation, I wonder what's next in line? This would be a card where the price has been driven more by interest in the issue/scarcity then by a movie.
In the late 80s a Southworth Zeenut would of been thrown into a stack and cost you $2 or $3. Last week, someone paid nearly $3K for it.
JasonL
10-13-2009, 01:37 PM
Jackson valuations are in my opinion quite disproportionate to his accomplishments. Of course there is an explanation for this, the Black Sox and the "what if" questions had he completed his career, and the fact that he appears on relatively few cards. Still, on the theory that one can only judge a player by his actual achievements, here are the batters he is most comparable to statistically:
Compare Stats to Similars
Pete Browning (878)
Elmer Flick (869) *
Riggs Stephenson (854)
Earle Combs (853) *
Tip O'Neill (844)
Baby Doll Jacobson (840)
Joe Vosmik (839)
Ross Youngs (826) *
Bibb Falk (826)
John Stone (821)
Not exactly elite company.
He did it all WITHOUT SHOES!!!
:D
I would say the top three would be:
Baltimore News Ruth
T210 Joe Jackson
T206 Wagner
Less than ten years ago, a person could have gotten a T206 Wagner for 50k. I think the first one to crack 100k was only about seven years ago. Several have now sold in excess of 300k and the SGC 10 example in REA a few months back went for 400k.
I bet, in terms of percentage, the BN Ruth has probably done better - largely thanks to good promotion and auction catalog write-ups. Ooops... did I actually say that on Net 54? :p
JimB
Honorable mention goes to a number of rare 19th century cards like the 4 Base Hits Kelly and some tough KBats, etc.
JimB
The Ruth went up a lot, but I think that recently it has cooled down a bit.
I agree with the Black Sox cards. It's a bummer that they have shot up in the past couple of years. :(
I think the biggest percentage gains could be some T206 backs. What did a BL460 go for 20 yrs ago and what does it go for today? A few dollars to a few thousand......that's a large percentage. regards
Bicem
10-13-2009, 02:53 PM
maybe a better question is which (if any) cards have NOT appreciated much?
Jim VB
10-13-2009, 04:37 PM
maybe a better question is which (if any) cards have NOT appreciated much?
Jeff,
That's a simple question. Anything you or I collect has appreciated through the roof. Anything we try to sell has been pretty stable.
prewarsports
10-13-2009, 06:08 PM
1977 Burger King Lou Pinella. The worst vintage (pre 1980's) investment. Value in 1980 was $15. Value today, about $15.
Rhys
ullmandds
10-13-2009, 06:27 PM
I always wanted a BK Pinella as a kid...but Tom Stadulis wouldn't trade it to me...not even for a 1967 High # Brooks Robinson. I eventually got one...just a few years ago!!!!!!
cfc1909
10-13-2009, 07:03 PM
in 2001 there were several Broad Leaf 460s on ebay with $250 bins. In 2002 and 03 the Barnings sold their dealer inventory of t206s that was loaded with tough backs. There were more than a dozen Drums that went from about $300 to $1000 for the vg-ex ones. A lot of 20 vg-ex Hindus with some HOFers went for 2k.
in 1989 I bought my first t206 -it was an ex+ bat on Cobb for $100.
I am pretty sure Dan M. bought his first green Cobb for $1 in the 70s...:D
in 2001 there were several Broad Leaf 460s on ebay with $250 bins. In 2002 and 03 the Barnings sold their dealer inventory of t206s that was loaded with tough backs. There were more than a dozen Drums that went from about $300 to $1000 for the vg-ex ones. A lot of 20 vg-ex Hindus with some HOFers went for 2k.
in 1989 I bought my first t206 -it was an ex+ bat on Cobb for $100.
I am pretty sure Dan M. bought his first green Cobb for $1 in the 70s...:D
I think I remember those BL460's on ebay. I think Scott Forest bought 2 of them....and that is all I recall there were, though I am not positive.
felada
10-13-2009, 07:26 PM
how much were the california league OJs going for 20 years ago? try and find one for under six figures now.
Peter_Spaeth
10-13-2009, 07:34 PM
maybe a better question is which (if any) cards have NOT appreciated much?
There was a time when a Canseco rookie went for close to $100 LOL.
rhettyeakley
10-13-2009, 10:35 PM
A lot of these cards we are talking about may have "booked" for very little money many many years ago, however, finding one of them back then was basically impossible. Ruth Baltimore News California League OJ's etc. all fall into this category. The Ruth basically was not known to exist and the Cali OJ's while booking for little--good luck finding any (even then) for those prices. I will second the 1911 Halla spoken of earlier. I picked mine up maybe 5 years ago for roughly $30, and a few years earlier it would have been roughly $10, finding one today would set you back maybe $1500-2000 for a decent one--although I haven't seen a straight sale of that card individually in the last 3 years, there was the 19th Century auction w/ a SGC 20 (I think) Halla w/ 3 others that sold for $2000+ (granted one of the others was also a known rarity)
Price increase from $10 to roughly $1500-2000 is 150-200X the price in ~6-10 years
http://www.starsofthediamond.com/11zeehalla.JPG
-Rhett
Edited to add: It was an SGC 20 (although it looked a bit undergraded-it looked like a SGC 30-40 to these eyes) w/ French, Fitzgerald, and Fullerton for $2,300.
cfc1909
10-14-2009, 05:19 AM
you are correct-I think there were a few more but sold privately.
ullmandds
10-14-2009, 05:53 AM
Ahhh...now we're getting somewhere. The Halla is definitely a front runner. How about the t212 Ten Million card...talk about irrational over-exhuberance?!
Or maybe a more mainstream card...like the t206 plank...while the Wags has had quite a run...the Plank has ridden Honus's coattails in spades!
barrysloate
10-14-2009, 07:34 AM
There is also a different way that people collect today, that we didn't see as much a generation ago. Back in the 1980's, collectors mostly worked on completing sets. If you worked on T206, you knew that a HOFer would cost more than a common, a Cobb more than a McGraw, and a Plank more than a Cobb. That came with the territory, and the better cards always sold for a multiple of the lesser ones.
Today there may not be as much set collecting (although still quite a bit), but there is much more emphasis on chasing iconic cards. There is an undeniable status buying a high profile card and throwing it right on Net54 to show off to friends. That didn't exist 25 years ago. Also, many of these iconic cards are marketed entirely differently today.
Take the Baltimore News Ruth as an example. It was a known but obscure item in the 1980's. Collectors considered it a minor league schedule with an early picture of Ruth on it. Always valuable, even then, but it was after all still a schedule. Then in recent years it has been reclassified a baseball card, slabbed by the grading companies, and marketed as Ruth's rookie card (remember the days when an M101-4/5 was the rookie card?). The result is it has become a must have card. So while everything has appreciated over time, as it should, some cards have simply gone into orbit.
Another example, as cited by Ted Z. and others, is the E90-1 and T210 Jackson. In the 1980's they were expensive cards that needed to be acquired along the way to completing their respective sets. But after the two movies, they became status cards and everyone who could afford them had to have one. Again, this is something we rarely saw happen back then, but happens regularly today. Somebody could expand on this and write a paper on the psychology of collecting...but it won't be me.
ullmandds
10-14-2009, 08:16 AM
Great points, Barry...as an early type collector 20 odd years in the making...I was most concerned with the caramel, tobacco, and bread runs from the ACC...but obviously collectors like Leon have taken this concept to the nth degree...and collecting styles have certainly evolved with the times.
ebrehm
10-14-2009, 09:16 AM
I think, generally speaking, cards values have appreciated more over the past 20 years in the higher condition levels than in the 'collector' grades. So for example I think there is a much bigger price differential now between EX-MT and Mint cards, than there was in the mid-1980's. Certainly the advent of third party professional grading, population reports, etc. has something to do with this, but it might also suggest increasing condition consciousness over time on the part of collectors.
Barry,
You were much more articulate about the changed hobby perception of the BN Ruth than I was. Suffice it to say that PR and a persuasive auction catalog write-up changed everything. Where did all the people who say auction catalog write-ups don't affect results go?
JimB
Ah, those "legendary" Mastro card write-ups! Some of the write-ups were entertaining but fairly lengthy. How many paragraphs does it take to describe a card in VG condition with a small crease. Those write-ups would go on forever about the card and indicate that the small crease only affected the numerical grade of the card but didn't detract from the overall aesthetic appeal of the card.
Lots of hype in the auction catalog write-ups (not just Mastro Auctions). But the name of the game is to market the card to receive top dollar for the consignors (who probably appreciated the hype).
barrysloate
10-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Thanks Jim, and I do agree with you that well written and informative auction descriptions are a big plus. But my complaint was with the poorly written and inaccurate ones, of which there are many.
And I still maintain that even among the best written catalogs, a little blue pencil would go a long way. I do believe if the descriptions are too long you will lose part of your audience. Some people like them, others don't have the attention span to wade through all the drivel.
Give me a well written paragraph or two with all the relevant information, crystal clear scans that can be enlarged, and I'm a happy man.
Barry,
You were much more articulate about the changed hobby perception of the BN Ruth than I was. Suffice it to say that PR and a persuasive auction catalog write-up changed everything. Where did all the people who say auction catalog write-ups don't affect results go?
JimB
Jim- Do you really think that a Baltimore News Ruth will get more money, in a public auction, because of the write up? You really can't think that, can you?
DICKTOWLE
10-14-2009, 10:30 AM
:)Magie error T 206, found one still glued in a scrapbook-- still in book
barrysloate
10-14-2009, 10:52 AM
I think what Jim meant was whoever figured out that calling the Baltimore News Ruth a baseball card instead of a schedule did a great job of marketing it. Now that it is only considered a baseball card there really isn't anything left to say except how rare and important it is.
drdduet
10-14-2009, 10:53 AM
Let's not forget all those 50's and 60's high grade commons that could have been picked up for a couple of bucks that were entombed as 8's, 9's, or 10's and sold for a mint...
Baseball Rarities
10-14-2009, 11:47 AM
Barry and Jim,
I never remember the Baltimore News cards ever being considered just schedules. Maybe "Schedule Cards" would be an accurrrate description, but I think that it is wrong to dismiss it as just a schedule.I think that it is a baseball card that happens to have a schedule on the back of it.
To me all you have to do is look at the cards - they look like typical baseball cards of the era. Their main focus was the player that was pictured on the front of the card. Their dimensions are the size of a normal baseball card and were printed on typical baseball card stock. The cards were obviously made to be collected as they pictured a plethora of players from Baltimore's two professional teams - the Orioles and the Terrapins.
Even the backs of the cards (one version) state "This Card Given To ______."
I think that they are baseball cards which happen to have a schedule (an advertisement for the team) on the reverse of them as opposed to an advertisement for cigarettes, candy or whatever else.
ullmandds
10-14-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm fine with calling them cards...more so than many other issues out there considered cards these days! Some pinkertons have scorecards on the back, too...and they ARE cards!
I am not arguing that they are not cards, just that REA almost single-handedly changed hobby perception of the card with his write-up of the first in the string of examples they handled about four years ago. Ten years ago it was not a card most people would put in the upper-tier of premier cards in the hobby. Today it would be on most people's list. Had REA not written it up and promoted it the way they did, that would not be the case IMHO. I am not making a value judgement here; just stating the facts as I see them. The card may well deserve its current status. My point is that its current status owes much to PR and auction catalog write-ups. The T206 Wagner owes much to PR as well.
JimB
Jim- Do you really think that a Baltimore News Ruth will get more money, in a public auction, because of the write up? You really can't think that, can you?
I think it already did. The deed is done. All future sales of the BN Ruth will benefit tremendously from an incredible auction write-up from one of the most knowledgeable and respected people in the hobby. At this point the card does not need the write-up so much. But it did five years ago.
JimB
barrysloate
10-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Hi Kevin- I trust your recollection but was the Baltimore News Ruth considered his rookie card back in the early days of the hobby? I think there was a time when it sold for less than the M101-4/5, so at the very least it was perceived in some way differently than it is today.
The first of the four or five examples that REA sold belonged to a west coast collector. I was speaking to a mutual friend who said that when the consignor purchased it in the 1980's he had no idea what it was, and that he paid a minimal price for it (I think a few hundred dollars). It was not presented to him as a Babe Ruth rookie card. So that anecdote got me thinking that there was a different perception back then.
Can you recall any specific transaction from the 1980's, and if so how the card was presented?
Baseball Rarities
10-14-2009, 12:41 PM
Hi Barry,
I have always been aware of the card since my involvement in the hobby (late 1970's), but the first example that I remember being sold was the one in the Copeland sale in 1991. The card was described as being in Excellent condition, but I think that it had a small amount of writing on the back. It sold for $18,700 at the time.
For comparison, in the same auction a complete 200 card set of M101-4 Sporting News cards in Near Mint sold for $9,900. A complete set of M101-5s Near Mint to Mint or better sold for $13,200. A 1916 D329 Weil Baking of Ruth in Near Mint sold for $3,850.
Here are some other results for cards that I consider some of the hobby's "elite" cards from the same era: a T206 Plank described as being in NM/MT for $26,400, an E107 Delhanty in EX/MT for $1,650, a E224 Texas Tommy of Joe Jackson in EX for $4,400, E270 Colgan's Tin Top Jackson in EX for $4,400, a T206 Cobb (bat off) with Uzit back in NM/MT for $6,050.
And lastly, since we were discussing 19th century cards in another thread, an N172 Anson in uniform in "almost NM" condition sold for $28,600 and a group of 8 N167 Old Judge cards including 5 HOFers in EX to NM sold for $26,400.
So at least as a reference point dating back 18 years ago, I think that it can certainly be said that the Baltimore News of Ruth was definitely considered to be part of the "upper-tier of premier cards in the hobby" (as Jim described it).
barrysloate
10-14-2009, 01:10 PM
Thanks Kevin. I stand corrected.
Hi Barry,
I have always been aware of the card since my involvement in the hobby (late 1970's), but the first example that I remember being sold was the one in the Copeland sale in 1991. The card was described as being in Excellent condition, but I think that it had a small amount of writing on the back. It sold for $18,700 at the time.
For comparison, in the same auction a complete 200 card set of M101-4 Sporting News cards in Near Mint sold for $9,900. A complete set of M101-5s Near Mint to Mint or better sold for $13,200. A 1916 D329 Weil Baking of Ruth in Near Mint sold for $3,850.
Here are some other results for cards that I consider some of the hobby's "elite" cards from the same era: a T206 Plank described as being in NM/MT for $26,400, an E107 Delhanty in EX/MT for $1,650, a E224 Texas Tommy of Joe Jackson in EX for $4,400, E270 Colgan's Tin Top Jackson in EX for $4,400, a T206 Cobb (bat off) with Uzit back in NM/MT for $6,050.
And lastly, since we were discussing 19th century cards in another thread, an N172 Anson in uniform in "almost NM" condition sold for $28,600 and a group of 8 N167 Old Judge cards including 5 HOFers in EX to NM sold for $26,400.
So at least as a reference point dating back 18 years ago, I think that it can certainly be said that the Baltimore News of Ruth was definitely considered to be part of the "upper-tier of premier cards in the hobby" (as Jim described it).
So if the Baltimore News Ruth sold for 18.7k, then it's not even in the top 500 cards that have appreciated most, as a percentage, over the last 20 years. It's still probably the #1 20th century card I would like to own but for this question's sake, it's not in the running for the card that has increased in value the most. It's probably something less than 20x more valuable today than it was then.
Baseball Rarities
10-14-2009, 02:13 PM
Leon,
Agreed.
The E107 of Delahanty in EX/MT would be a good example of a card that has gone up a ton. The EX/MT sold in Copeland for $1,650. The most recent sale that I know of is a poor example in an SGC 10 for nearly $75,000 a couple of years ago.
barrysloate
10-14-2009, 02:40 PM
In terms of multipliers, the Ruth is not number 1. But if you bought the Copeland example for $18,700, you would be a few hundred thousand dollars ahead. So that's not bad.