View Full Version : OT: How about those Twins?
Chris Counts
10-07-2009, 09:16 AM
There's a lot to complain about in this world, but last night's Twins-Tigers game isn't one of them. The guy with the winning hit was batting .198, and the Twins' last pitcher picked up his first big league win ... in a do-or-die playoff game! The Metrodome is a poor excuse for a ballpark, but it's given us some unforgettable memories ...
ChiefBenderForever
10-07-2009, 09:25 AM
Great game! Twins luck keeps them alive. Looking forward to ending Yankees season!
Peter_Spaeth
10-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Yankees in 4, I think.
Chris Counts
10-07-2009, 11:06 AM
It's definitely going to be one of those David vs. Goliath playoff series. Go David!
vintagechris
10-07-2009, 01:55 PM
Fun game to watch. I was amazed at all the mistakes on what should have been elementary baseball.
Chris Counts
10-07-2009, 02:18 PM
I agree, Chris. At one point, the Tiger's left fielder slid to snag a ball in front of him, and it landed behind him. Worse, the center fielder wasn't backing him up. What should have been an out turned into a triple and eventually the tying run, keeping the Twins alive ...
The winning run scored when a late defensive replacement singled and was batted in by a guy who entered the game late as a pinch runner.
Ironic wasn't it that the Rayburn misses the ball in left and was playing because he is the best defensive outfielder on the Tigers according to Leyland.
Twins had their share of goofs too: Baker grooves an 0-2 pitch to Carbrera that is hit out of the park, Young throws to the wrong base letting a runner advance, Casilla fails to properly tagg at 3rd and is thus thrown out at the plate by a whisker.
But there were a lot of great plays- Inge saving the game on Carbrera's hit by making a miraculous stop, Carbrera returning the favor on a bullet hit by Inge which was turned in to a double play.
It was just a whale of a game. For those of you old enough to have watched the 1991 WS (often called the best ever because every game but one went down to the last out with the game turning on the play) you come to expect this in the Dome. If the Twins split in NY (gigantic IF), you have to like the Twins' chances to pull a huge upset.
On paper it should be a rout (who would you rather have at 3b A-Rod or Matt Tolbert the Ole Miss grad who has played less than one full season in the bigs, Jeter or O-Cab, Cano or Punto of the .225 BA, Tschiera or Cuddyer at
1b. In the outfield Young or Matsui? Only in center field and catcher do the Twins have the edge. On the mound Sabbathia v. Duensing? Burnett v. Blackburn? Pettit v. Pavano?
But the games aren't played on the paper (ask the 06 Cubs said to be the greatest team ever).
Jim VB
10-07-2009, 03:44 PM
... Casilla fails to properly tagg at 3rd and is thus thrown out at the plate by a whisker.
tbob,
I heard this comment after the game but missed the play. What did he do? Was he not back at third waiting and had to go back? If so, that is a Little League mistake. That ball was hit too hard and too shallow to be off the base and still try to score.
ullmandds
10-07-2009, 04:44 PM
"Was he not back at third waiting and had to go back? If so, that is a Little League mistake."
He was not!
ChiefBenderForever
10-07-2009, 05:17 PM
Wow what a blast! Jeter is the man!
calvindog
10-07-2009, 07:24 PM
Twins look overmatched tonight which should not be much of a surprise considering last night. But if I had a baseball team the first few guys I'd trade for would include Mauer and Nick Punto.
Jim VB
10-07-2009, 07:40 PM
I'm not in love with Punto. He's serviceable, bu that all.
Now Maurer and Morneau... they would look good in pinstripes, someday.
(Although I sense they are both throw-backs who will spend their entire careers in Minnesota. And I'm OK with that.)
Gardenhire's fatal flaw is that he cares too much. It's great that he loves his players and this sometimes inspires them to play hard but he will play certain players game after game because they once were good but now are not and he either doesn't recognize it or refuses to see it. He trotted Francisco Liriano (who was lights out in 2006 but hasn't done squat since then) out there all year long to the tune of 5-14 and he almost cost us the title but luckily for Twins fans Liriano went on the DL and Duensing came up and pitched lights out down the stretch. Tonight he sucked again, as usual, but there is another day and Nick Blackburn was arguably the best big game pitcher on the team this year so we'll see. Yes the Yanks have more talent but the Twins were just flat tonight. I thought Duensing did a nice job other than the one mistake to Jeter (I loved the announcers saying Jeter hit it "deep in to the New York night" when in actuality it barely got out and curled around the foul pole) and got a pitch up to Swisher. Nice job by the rookie.
Jim VB
10-07-2009, 07:56 PM
Gardenhire's fatal flaw is that he cares too much. It's great that he loves his players and this sometimes inspires them to play hard but he will play certain players game after game because they once were good but now are not and he either doesn't recognize it or refuses to see it. He trotted Francisco Liriano (who was lights out in 2006 but hasn't done squat since then) out there all year long to the tune of 5-14 and he almost cost us the title but luckily for Twins fans Liriano went on the DL and Duensing came up and pitched lights out down the stretch. Tonight he suckd again, as usual, but there is another day and Nick Blackburn was arguably the best big game pitcher on the team this year so we'll see. Yes the Yanks have more talent but the Twins was just flat tonight. I thought Duensing did a nice job other than the one mistake to Jeter (I loved the announcers say Jeter hit it "deep in to the New York night" when in actuality it barely got out and curled around the foul pole) and got a pitch up to Swisher. Nice job by the rookie.
Jeter's shot did just curl around the pole, but it landed 15-20 rows back. It was hit well.
ChiefBenderForever
10-07-2009, 07:59 PM
Mauer wants to win and doesn't think the Twins will add what is needed to go all the way. He also doesn't want his contract to be an excuse for adding nothing. I think the pressure and bright lights of NYC appeal to him and wouldn't be surprised to see him in pinstripes soon. He can't go anywhere here without being mobbed and is ready to step up to the bigtime.
The "big time"? Would that be playing for a team that hasn't won a single world championship this decade?
Maurer will stay a Twin, the Pohlads would have a fan revolt on their hands that would make the French Revolution look like an alley fight. :eek:
calvindog
10-07-2009, 08:05 PM
Bob, in fairness to Liriano he had a horrible injury and surgery. It was painful to see him out there tonight getting batted around when you consider how great (albeit for a flash in time) he was.
nolemmings
10-07-2009, 08:23 PM
Liriano's problems are mostly from the neck up. He has poor control, pitching for a team that gave up the fewest BBs again this year. The sermon is preached over and over--no walks, make them beat you with their bats--but is lost on him.
Liriano was the obvious first call to the bullpen tonight, given the short start and the pen's long workload last night. He actually pitched just badly, not poorly or abysmally as I half expected. The tator was hit to the deepest part of the park, but might have stayed in on a less windy night, in which case Span catches it, like he catches pretty much anything near him.
I'm sure Gardy also thought (well, dreamed is probably a better word) that Liriano might look sharp, and on the National stage no less, such that some team might actually delude itself into expressing trade interest this Winter. He's a number 5 starter at best now, and his days with the Twins are likely numbered.
ChiefBenderForever
10-07-2009, 08:39 PM
The "big time"? Would that be playing for a team that hasn't won a single world championship this decade?
Maurer will stay a Twin, the Pohlads would have a fan revolt on their hands that would make the French Revolution look like an alley fight. :eek:
The same fans who went ballastic when we took a local quarterback instead of Mark Prior? They got the new stadium so revenue covered for a couple years so if he wants to go it's over,and we will all cheer for him when he gets his ring just like KG with the Celtics. Posada is getting old and who better to replace him.
nolemmings
10-07-2009, 08:42 PM
do not look for Joe Mauer to be catching for years on end. IMO, he will start taking ground balls at 3B by 2011---in Minneapolis.
calvindog
10-07-2009, 08:47 PM
Posada is getting old and who better to replace him.
Posada is very old but I agree, no way is Mauer a catcher after a couple more years. Look what he did offensively behind the plate this year; imagine what he could have done if playing at first or third base.
ChiefBenderForever
10-07-2009, 09:00 PM
I don't understand why he has been catching the past few years with the swing he has and bad knees. I hope he stays but won't be surprised if he leaves.
The same fans who went ballastic when we took a local quarterback instead of Mark Prior? They got the new stadium so revenue covered for a couple years so if he wants to go it's over,and we will all cheer for him when he gets his ring just like KG with the Celtics. Posada is getting old and who better to replace him.
Johnny, you could count the number of fans I know on one hand who wanted Prior over Maurer. Maurer cam out after high school as the best player in the draft and thank goodness the Twins grabbed him.
ChiefBenderForever
10-08-2009, 03:28 PM
Johnny, you could count the number of fans I know on one hand who wanted Prior over Maurer. Maurer cam out after high school as the best player in the draft and thank goodness the Twins grabbed him.
I was so upset about the loss I didn't even know what I was saying. There is a lot of talk about Mauer leaving but hopefully doesn't happen. Win Twins!
Rob D.
10-10-2009, 09:59 AM
No matter how this series turns out, at least the Twins have received the respect they deserve.
oldjudge
10-11-2009, 08:51 PM
The Twins are a scrappy team and, as a Yankee fan, I would like to congratulate them for a great season. Without a bad call and some bad luck it might have been a different series.
The Twins are a scrappy team and, as a Yankee fan, I would like to congratulate them for a great season. Without a bad call and some bad luck it might have been a different series.
Speaking of bad luck I wonder how the Cardinals are going to spend their "Holliday" off? :D
calvindog
10-11-2009, 09:06 PM
The Twins are a scrappy team and, as a Yankee fan, I would like to congratulate them for a great season. Without a bad call and some bad luck it might have been a different series.
And some basic baserunning skills; that would have helped too.
And a frontal lobotomy for Nick Punto would also help. He and Gomez have the combined IQs of a melon.
Anybody going to give the Yankees credit for the sweep? Anybody??
Yup congrats to the poster boys for steroids- A-Rod and Pettit. The whiney baby Posada had a big home run too.
When you have so much money you can go out and buy CC, Burnett, A-Rod, Matsui, Tschiera and anyone else you want, you are supposed to win. The sad thing is the Twins should have won Game 2 and had a real chance to win Game 3 even without their slugger Morneau. Only the brain farts of the manager and some incredibly stupid little league base running kept the Twins from making it really tough for the yanks.
Me, I'll be pulling for the Rockies now, but yes, congrats to the Bronx Bombers....
calvindog
10-11-2009, 09:47 PM
Yup congrats to the poster boys for steroids- A-Rod and Pettit. The whiney baby Posada had a big home run too.
When you have so much money you can go out and buy CC, Burnett, A-Rod, Matsui, Tschiera and anyone else you want, you are supposed to win. The sad thing is the Twins should have won Game 2 and had a real chance to win Game 3 even without their slugger Morneau. Only the brain farts of the manager and some incredibly stupid little league base running kept the Twins from making it really tough for the yanks.
Me, I'll be pulling for the Rockies now, but yes, congrats to the Bronx Bombers....
Bob, I just looked up irony in the dictionary and found this! And the Twins's owners have money, too, they just choose not to spend it. In fact, the Twins' owners are the richest in MLB, worth over $3 billion. Steinbrenner is worth $1.3 billion.
ChiefBenderForever
10-11-2009, 10:03 PM
As much as I Hate Arod gotta give him credit. The pressure in pinstripes is to much for many to handle. Pohlads have money but he was a banker so every penny was always pinched. With all the money Pohlads son made producing Brokeback Mountain it's to bad he didn't put any into the Twins. Congrats to NY go crush the Angels.
Jay Wolt
10-11-2009, 10:11 PM
The Twins are spending over $400 million on their new stadium.
Though don't know why they would want an open air stadium since
the first & last month of the season will be brutal playing outside.
Plus they had such an advantage playing in the dome, that may
not be the case in the new place.
nolemmings
10-11-2009, 10:41 PM
As a die-hard Twins fan who also likes the Yankees, I shrug this one off as not meant to be. Twins certainly had their chances, and have no one to blame but themselves.
Twins could not hit with RISP. Span, Mauer and Cuddyer each hit .400 or better for the series, as did Punto. That's almost half of your lineup seeing and hitting the ball well, but the big hits were just not there. Twins were the only team in MLB to have four players with 25 HR and 90 RBI, yet the bashing never came. Kubel was 1-14 with nine strikeouts--that has more to do with the outcome than the pinheaded base-running plays, which, while not heady, were at least not short of hustle and effort.
I see a whole lot of upside next year. Our ten-game winner before the All Star game will be back, Morneau will hopefully be healthy, and the core will stay intact.
Sterling Sports Auctions
10-11-2009, 11:39 PM
calvindog, really poor argument. When the Yankees are taking in probably $200 million a year than the Twins it does not make any business sense to try and match the yankees spending. Unless your owner has a wish before he dies to win the World Series it would not take long to drain the old funds in this venture. Not even George would spend that money if he did not have that kind of money coming in.
Lee
barrysloate
10-12-2009, 05:10 AM
Nick Punto made one of the worst base running gaffes I have ever seen, given the circumstances. Yankees-Angels should be a barn burner!
calvindog
10-12-2009, 05:12 AM
Nobody says that the Twins have to spend as much as the Yankees; but perhaps they could spend as much as the Royals. Or the Reds. Or the Brewers. Look, if you're going to have the ready-made excuse that the reason you lost is because of money, why bother turning on the games at all? As Todd pointed out, the Twins had four guys with 25/90 (although Morneau was out), it's not like they don't have the talent. Add two decent pitchers to that team and teach them how to run the bases and the result may have been different in this series.
yanks12025
10-12-2009, 06:30 AM
Why should the twins have won game 2, if your talking about the blowning foul ball call then the twins should not have been in the playoffs to begin with because the one Tiger player got hit by the ball in the 12th inning and they never called it. That would have given the Tigers the lead.
Look, if you're going to have the ready-made excuse that the reason you lost is because of money, why bother turning on the games at all?
That would explain why I haven't been to a Reds game in 5 years. They have already said they are probably going to cut the payroll next season, but they expect people to spend their money to come out an see the same 4th place team from this season? If the team isn't going to make an effort to put out an attractive product, why should I make an effort to go watch them? Short of baseball getting a salary cap by some miracle, why do these owners buy teams if they can't afford to/aren't willing to spend the money to field a competitive team?
nolemmings
10-12-2009, 09:00 AM
The Twins do not need to spend money for its own sake--their payroll will rise this offseason and they presently spend more than last year's darlings in Tampa. Their payroll is slightly less than Texas and not dramatically lower than playoff teams Colorado and St. Louis. They also do not need to be taught anything--they are perennially one of the top three most fundamentally sound teams in all of baseball if not number one. Mistakes happen, and did.
My guess is that the team will spend the winter trying to sign Cabrera and Pavano, while working on Mauer. They will never spend huge dollars on a free agent pitcher, and pitching was not what cost them in the ALDS. They opened the series with a rookie #5 starter because of the way the regular season came down to the wire. In the other two games, the mighty Yankees "amassed" one run off starter Blackburn and two runs off starter Pavano, so I highly doubt some stud free agent would have done any better. The Twins had a 15 game winner who never got to throw and a 10 game winner through June on the shelf.
In sum, the Twins have won their division 5 of the last 8 seasons, and should win it again next year, barring injury and a healthy return for Morneau and Slowey.
chaddurbin
10-12-2009, 11:33 AM
Short of baseball getting a salary cap by some miracle, why do these owners buy teams if they can't afford to/aren't willing to spend the money to field a competitive team?
because baseball is a profitable business. with luxury tax and merchandise revenue sharing, every year these kc, cincy, pittsburgh etc owners are getting a nice big check from mlb. contrary to all these owners with the projections of losing millions, baseball is still very much a thriving business.
and cincy have some decent young talent...if i'm a fan and i hear cutting high salaries from aging guys such as adam harang or scott rolen, i'd probably be excited.
Why should the twins have won game 2, if your talking about the blowning foul ball call then the twins should not have been in the playoffs to begin with because the one Tiger player got hit by the ball in the 12th inning and they never called it. That would have given the Tigers the lead.
Amazing that the ump that made that call was once fired by MLB for being incompetent. He was out of baseball until he ran in to a buddy at a casino and got a job in the minors. He then came to the majors when the umps tried their ill-fated strike, as a scab.
That was the worst call I have ever seen in a post season game in 50 years of watching. The next worse was the call at 1b in the StL-KC WS.
Despite the call, the Twins STILL should have won the game. Nathan implodes, Gardy makes some bad decisions, etc. The Twins could have been up 2-1 playing today at the Dome but the more talented team won.
yanks12025
10-12-2009, 12:41 PM
Amazing that the ump that made that call was once fired by MLB for being incompetent. He was out of baseball until he ran in to a buddy at a casino and got a job in the minors. He then came to the majors when the umps tried their ill-fated strike, as a scab.
That was the worst call I have ever seen in a post season game in 50 years of watching. The next worse was the call at 1b in the StL-KC WS.
Despite the call, the Twins STILL should have won the game. Nathan implodes, Gardy makes some bad decisions, etc. The Twins could have been up 2-1 playing today at the Dome but the more talented team won.
But you guys should not have even been in the playoffs. You got in because of a umpire making a bad call.
The whiney baby Posada had a big home run too.
Bob, I just looked up irony in the dictionary and found this!
Jeff- Posada should have kept it in the dugout. By throwing it around and making a media event out of bitching because Burnett and Girardi preferred Molina to catch Burnett he came off as a disgruntled, self-serving jerk. I had always liked Posada but he handled it horribly. Besides he looked awful in Game 1 behind the plate. :cool:
The Pohlad kids have plenty of money, they just don't want to spend it on the team. It will be interesting to see how much of an attempt they make to sign Maurer over the winter. I can see Buffet Bill Smith (GM) and the FO ending up trading Maurer ala Santana to the highest bidder and getting back a bag of rocks like they did in the Santana deal.
Todd- I get tired of hearing how it is not the "Twins way" to bring in good free agents as an excuse for being cheap. In 1987 they brought in Don Baylor, Jeff Reardon, Bert Blyleven, Dan Gladden and 4 years later brought in Jack Morris, Chilli Davis and we know how that worked out. Buffet Bill could have had Cabrera and Pavano all year long for peanuts if he had gotten off his duff during the winter meetings. Now the latest runor is that in order to sign Maurer there won't be anttempts to bring these 2 guys back next year. But of course we can give Nick "Bonehead" Punto a huge raise and extension and have him hit .230 again, making more than Slowey, Blackburn, Span, etc. Sickening.
But you guys should not have even been in the playoffs. You got in because of a umpire making a bad call.
It wasn't the bottom of the last inning. The last time I looked the home team still has a chance to bat in the bottom of the inning.
Apples and oranges.
nolemmings
10-12-2009, 03:53 PM
Tbob, you have a selective memory. Seems to me you were ranting back in the first half of the season about how Smith should be fired and the team was no good, etc. and etc. I told you to relax and wait until the end of the season, and guess what, they were there in post-season again.
In '87, the Twins did not go out into the free agent market to acquire those players you named. Reardon and Gladden were acquired by trade before the season began, one considered a has been and the other a considered a never was. Their cost was cheap and they blossomed--something the Twins have enjoyed before. Blyleven had been acquired nearly two years prior, again by trade (for Jay Bell, who wound up scoring the winning run off of Mariano Rivera in the 2001 WS), and was himself in his 18th season by 1987. Baylor was acquired late, playing in only 20 games and retiring after the following season. So there was no magic, open wallet that led to that '87 crown.
In '91, Morris signed as a free agent because no one else would pay what he wanted, and he got to pitch back home. He lasted that one year. Chili Davis was a nice free agent signing, but hardly the kind that leads The Sporting News to stop the presses and generate a new cover. Not really different than signing Joe Crede this year.
The Twins tried to get Cabrera early and didn't really need Pavano until Slowey got hurt and the starters struggled in June. Neither was available at the start of the season, and the price was too high on Cabrera for a long time. And what difference would that have made, really? The very most that I see is that they may have won the division outright and had their rotation set better for the playoffs than having to start Duensing in game 1. That's it. Hardly a reason to break out the torches and/or call for a blood letting.
I haven't looked hard at the upcoming free agents, but can tell you now that things won't change dramatically if at all. The Twins will make efforts to sign Cabrera and Pavano, maybe Crede too, in efforts to show Mauer that they are serious about keeping the core intact. After all, I hear nothing but bitching that free agents leave because the team has no chance of winning, and further bitching that the team does not lock up its good young players while it has the chance. Well, that's exactly what they will focus on this Winter, and if you believe they should do all that while at the same time competing for the Sabathias and Texeiras of the world, I respectfully submit that you're dreamin.
cincy have some decent young talent...if i'm a fan and i hear cutting high salaries from aging guys such as adam harang or scott rolen, i'd probably be excited.
I doubt the Reds will be able to give Aaron Harang away at this point after he's been terrible the last few years and finished this season on the DL. Rolen won't be going anywhere since they were already out of it when they traded for him and they specifically said it was mostly a move for next season to add veteran leadership and upgrade the third base position. They do have a lot of young talent, but eventually all of those top 10 draft picks should pan out sooner or later. Still, the Reds would basically have to have a season like Tampa Bay did where all of the young players come together at the same time since they will all be traded for more prospects as soon as they become "too expensive".
Todd, the Twins are paying Punto more than their #2, #3 and #5 pitchers in the rotation and we all know what a disaster Punto was until the final 2 weeks of the season. The Pohlads (like Griffith before them) are CHEAP. I guess if you want to call it the "Twins' Way," then the Twins Way is to underpay whenever possible, to take reaches in the Draft who are "signable" instead of the best players available (Maurer the exception), and to ignore free agents unless they are scrap heap players like Craig Monroe, Eddie Guardado, Mike Lamb, Livan Hernandez, the steroid 2b from Seattle, Adam Everett, the bust from the Padres, Ayala, the list goes on and on.
You are probably right on the '87 acquistions, a couple of them came in trades and were as you described "never-wases and has-beens."
I don't think I am selective on Buffet Bill Smith. He is a disaster. He got a bag of rocks for Johan Santana when he could have had Jacoby Ellsbury and or Bucholtz/Masterson or Lester. He traded away last year's MVP on the Rays, Jason Barrett who I believe hit over .300 again this year and a pitcher who was the ALCS MVP last year for Delmon Young who is an overweight singles hitter with no power who hits .275 and fields like he is on ice skates.
Smith has been an absolute disaster and I don't think he has redeemed himself with Crede who was hurt half the time and batted about .235 or Pavano and Cabrera. I have to disagree with you on Cabrera, he WAS available this winter. No one else wanted him but the A's and yet we thought Punto and Casilla were going to be the second coming of Nellie Fox and Luis Aparicio and we see where that got us.
A lot of Twins fans are hot at Smith and believe he has one more year to prove he is capable of being a major league GM. I am in that group. Just like last year he needs to shore up the pen. He needs to bring in some right handed power hitting as the Twins look sick against lefties. He needs a real
3b and a real 2b. Tolbert is another .235 hitter and Casilla is a head case. Buscher is a .235 hitter. Smith failed to bring up Valencia and Tolleson to play 3rd and second so we could see how they would fare against MLB competition.
Finally, I will tell you this Todd, down here in the SEC (the best college baseball in the nation) the coaches pray that their juniors they desperately want back are drafted by the Twins because they know the Twins won't pay enough and they will have their players back. The Dean kid, a power hitter, great defensive player and team leader for LSU is a perfect example. The Twins low-balled him and he is back in school.
Jeff is right, the Twins DO have the money, they just won't spend it.
chaddurbin
10-12-2009, 04:37 PM
doug,
didn't realize the overpriced veterans are on multi-year contracts, i didn't include arroyo because i knew he still has a couple years left.
todd,
when are the twins going to cut bait on delmon young? when 2/3rd of your outfield for much of the year are offense-suppressing carlos gomez and young, it's amazing they still came back to win. i think a few guys played above their heads, cabrera and pavano made some key contributions after the trade...but the twins will be in trouble if they're the big moves this offseason. i thought dunn would've been a good fit in there to replace morneau, high hr/ops lf/1b/dh type but maybe the front office don't want a lefty-heavy lineup for next year.
(disclaimer: i'm basing most of my opinions on watching the twins the last couple weeks in the playoffs...so i wouldn't know intricate details like nick punto is an overachieving scrappy hustling white version of david eckstein or delmon young is exceedingly lucky that's why they want him in the lineup)
calvindog
10-12-2009, 04:59 PM
so i wouldn't know intricate details like nick punto is an overachieving scrappy hustling white version of david eckstein
Quan, it don't get much whiter than Eckstein!
nolemmings
10-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Please look at your facts. The Twins have signed their first pick each year this century, and Cuddyer in 1997. Five of them, counting Cuddyer, made
the big team--Mauer, Perkins, Garza, and Span being the others--and the others are still in the organization. So give me a break when you say they don't build through the draft and that they're too cheap.
Quan, you can't be serious about replacing an MVP like Morneau with Adam Dunn. Morneau made it to 30-100 playing with a cracked bone in his back for two months and missing the last, and unlike Dunn, can carry a glove. And whereas you see these guys as having played over their heads, I see most or all of them on the rise. Kubel is legit, Span may win a batting crown someday, and Mauer and Morneau are of course the real deal. BTW, Gomez no longer starts, so our OF about which you seem to worry is Span (8th in BA with 20 something steals), Cuddyer (once Morneau returns--(.276, 32 HR 94 RBI)) and Kubel (.300, 28 HR 103 RBI), along with Delmon and Gomez.
As for Delmon Young, he is all of 24 years old, barely. He was A.L. co-player of the week the last week of the season (with Kubel). The last 18 games, when Morneau was officially put on the shelf and he got to play every day, Delmon was 30 for 81. That's .370 when every game was a must win, and oh, that's with 4 HR, 14 runs and 18 RBI batting sixth or seventh. That's roughly one-ninth of the season, projecting out at 36 HR, 126 R and 152 RBI. Now I wouldn't expect those numbers year long, but the guy is hardly a slouch slap hitter and can't be considered either a bust or on the downside of his career at 24. Also, whether it factored in or not, the poor guy lost his mother to cancer in May after a long illness, and just may not have had his act together the whole year.
chaddurbin
10-12-2009, 06:50 PM
i'm saying when morneau went down, dunn could've had in a trade (or waiver).
as for young, until he learns some pitch recognition and start taking walks, his hitting is a mirage. not sure if he'll develop some power, but a sub .800ops at a corner outfield spot is not going to cut it. for the twins' sake i hope he has a matt kemp-like breakthrough next year.
Please look at your facts. The Twins have signed their first pick each year this century, and Cuddyer in 1997. Five of them, counting Cuddyer, made
the big team--Mauer, Perkins, Garza, and Span being the others--and the others are still in the organization. So give me a break when you say they don't build through the draft and that they're too cheap.>
Perkins is horrible and will probably be released over the winter. Garza is gone thanks to Bill Smith's idiocy.
I didn't say they didn't build through the draft, I said they overreach and draft "signable players" for a discount like the Revere kid who the ESPN announcers couldn't believe was taken in the first round. A 5-9 lefty who hits singles, just what the Twins need! (sarcasm)
:rolleyes:
"MLB Reports Resume: The Twins surprised the heck out of everyone when they drafted Revere with their first round draft pick in 2007, 28th overall. I immediately chastized the Twins for an overdraft for a player that I called, "Brett Gardner with a bigger paycheck." at the time. I figured that they were a little strapped for cash, and therefore picked a player that they could sign for below slot. Revere was projected as a 2nd round pick."
This year they signed a pitcher who had an arm injury and fell like a rock down to the Twins. Thank God they DID sign him because he has potential. I guess the Twins got tired of signing the best players like Jason Varitek because they continually low-balled them. I had a player who played for me in American Legion ball who was drafted by the Twins and he got the typical Twins low ball offer. Only the A's are cheaper in their offers to draftees than the Twins. Todd, they are cheap. I love them too but their owners have long been known for their stingy ways.
nolemmings
10-12-2009, 07:12 PM
Morneau went down in September, so there was for all practical purposes nothing to do. More importantly and as noted, Cuddyer moved to first, Kubel to RF and Delmon to left, and all three were absolutely on fire the rest of the season. There can be zero bitch by Twins fans about production after Morneau went down, except of course for those who still somehow believe it is inexcusable for not beating the Yankees.
As I said, Delmon is on the upswing, ending the season very strong. What you see as his YEAR LONG and somehow permanent condition in terms of OPS is in my view the mirage, as he will improve. BTW, his OPS, as poorly as he played for the first half of the season--thereafter sitting for great lengths until Morneau got hurt-- is still comparable to what was done by Josh Hamilton, and was better than Alex Rios, Tigers Carlos Guillen and rookie (albeit older than Delmon) Clete Thomas, Vernon Wells and BJ Upton.
nolemmings
10-12-2009, 07:28 PM
I feel like James Carville when people bitch at him about the Clinton years. His response "What is it you didn't like, the peace or the prosperity?".
You whine that they don't pay, yet you complain that they grossly overpaid for Punto. You complain about GM Smith, who in two years won the division once and lost game 163 to get edged out in the other. You still haven't answered my earlier question, so let me rephrase: What player, what free agent, what signing or player move would have made squat's difference in this loss to the Yankees? Sit Punto, who hit over .400? Hire an arm who would have done better than the one run allowed by Blackburn or the two by Pavano? I know, since he got raked Nathan was the one who should never been allowed on the mound; you know, the guy who set the team record for saves. Maybe Kubel should have been benched--he was 1 for 14, no sense playing a guy with a .300 avg and 100 RBI. Could a blown save, a blown call and 17 men left on in Game 2 have had anything to do with it?. Do you really, truly believe that management cost us that series with the Yankees--that we were hopelessly outplayed?
When the Twins win their next crown, the team will not be markedly different than the '87 and '91 squads, you can take that to the bank. In the meantime, keep us apprised of all the studly free agents that always seem to land in Boston, New York, LA and other large markets, never any one of about 20-25 other franchises, and keep convincing yourself that it's all the Pohlad's (and Bill Smith's) fault.
nolemmings
10-12-2009, 07:34 PM
BTW, here are a few notes on Ben Revere, the lousy 2007 pick who's worse than Brett Gardner:
# Twins Minor League Player of the Week (May 9-16, 2008)
# Twins Minor League Player of the Month (May 2008)
# Midwest League All-Star (2008)
# Midwest League Mid-season MVP (2008)
# Midwest League Postseason All-Star (2008)
# Midwest League Player of the Year (2008)
# Midwest League Prospect of the Year (2008)
# Baseball America High Class A All-Star (2008)
# Sherry Robertson Award (Twins Minor League Player of the Year) (2008)
# Florida State League Player of the Week (May 11-17, 2009)
# FSL All-Star Selection (2009)
# FSL Post-Season All-Star (2009)
Todd- At 5-9 and 160 lbs. Ben Revere will never be more than a .300 hitter who hits singles and doubles. He is a quick Jason Kubel with no power. Unless he morphs in to Kirby Puckett the Twins will continue to fashion the worst power hitting outfield in MLB. Span, Gomez, Young, Cuddyer and possibly Revere. Revere is also a lefty and Lord knows the Twins need right handed hitting. Morneau, Maurer, Kubel, Span, the core of the team all struggle against good lefties.
Bill Smith is way in over his head. You credit Smith for winning or almost winning the division the last 2 years. I'm sorry to see you have drunk the Kool-Aid. The AL Central was the weakest this year in all of baseball. The players who carried the team the last 2 years were acquired prior to Smith getting the job. You can't give him credit for any of these players. The ones he brought here were disasters until he hit it lucky with Pavano and to some extent, Cabrera.
Yes the Twins are cheap. Yes they did overpay Punto whom I am convinced has a picture somewhere of Gardenhire and a farm animal, that is the only reason he plays. You mention his ALDS batting average. Good for him. What about his hitting barely .200 for most of the season and being ranked DEAD LAST among AL infielders when it comes to all batting categories.
I bet the Yankee pitchers absolutely trembled when they looked in the dugout and saw Casilla, Tolbert, Buscher, Redmond and Morrales on the bench.
Gardo is 2-12 in the post season since 2002. He is the most overrated manager in baseball.
nolemmings
10-13-2009, 04:09 PM
I find this particularly laughable "Morneau, Maurer, Kubel, Span, the core of the team all struggle against good lefties."
Mauer hit. 345 against lefties. Span hit .330. Morneau hit higher against lefties than righties. Only Kubel struggled, hitting .243, so I guess you platoon a .300 hitting 28 HR 103 RBI guy. BTW, Cuddyer hit .307 and Young .310 against southpaws so yeah, I can see where we've got no chance there.
Here's what, tbob. I'm gonna cheer for the Twins again next year, and history says they have a better than 50/50 shot of winning their division. I'm then gonna hope and pray they don't leave double-digit guys on base, blow two ninth innings and fall to a lowly ALDS opponent that wins 100+ games. I'll even pray that you get the job as GM, so I know we will be unstoppable.
You, you will start your annual rant about June as to how such a pathetic organization should be allowed to exist, how their manager and GM should be canned, and how anyone with 2 IQ points could guide this team to annual World Series appearances. Along about now, regardless of how far the Twins go in post-season, the rant will re-appear, and, I suppose, if they win it all we will get a shoulda-swept post or something similar. Believe me, watching parts of 120 or so Twins games a year, I can properly be accused of having a biased perspective of things, but when it comes to drinking Kool-Aid, man that's you, not me.
ChiefBenderForever
10-13-2009, 05:23 PM
It's very tough to win even if you spend big bucks. Team chemistry is the key and for some reason the Twins seem to gel very good when other teams don't. I think Gardy needs to get some credit for the clubhouse getting along, but at the same time you have to wonder how many careless errors happen if Tom Kelly was running the show. Girardi has done a great job this year keeping his players on the same page, especially with a headcase like Afraud and all the drama he brings. Derek Jeter is the best player born since 1960.
calvindog
10-13-2009, 09:30 PM
And Johnny, last year Girardi was nearly run out of town on a rail.
dwr11
10-14-2009, 08:27 AM
Gardo is 2-12 in the post season since 2002. He is the most overrated manager in baseball.
That might be the funniest quote I have read on here. Gardy is somehow winning with Punto & Tolbert in the lineup on a regular basis and a bullpen of nobodies other than Nathan. If Gardy isn't AL manager of the year something is wrong.
That might be the funniest quote I have read on here. Gardy is somehow winning with Punto & Tolbert in the lineup on a regular basis and a bullpen of nobodies other than Nathan. If Gardy isn't AL manager of the year something is wrong.
I didn't say he was the worst manager in baseball, I said he was the most overrated. The key is that the Central Division is the worst division in baseball. Cleveland and Kansas City are horrible, Minnesota, Detroit and Chicago are the epitome of average. Someone has to win the division. If the Twins were in the east they would have finished 5th behind NY, Boston, Toronto and Tampa Bay. Luckily we get to play KC and Cleveland and the others so often we can usually manage to get above .500 and get in the playoffs where we have fallen flat on our faces 12 of the last 14 times.
I find this particularly laughable "Morneau, Maurer, Kubel, Span, the core of the team all struggle against good lefties."
You, you will start your annual rant about June as to how such a pathetic organization should be allowed to exist, how their manager and GM should be canned, and how anyone with 2 IQ points could guide this team to annual World Series appearances. Along about now, regardless of how far the Twins go in post-season, the rant will re-appear, and, I suppose, if they win it all we will get a shoulda-swept post or something similar. Believe me, watching parts of 120 or so Twins games a year, I can properly be accused of having a biased perspective of things, but when it comes to drinking Kool-Aid, man that's you, not me.
Todd, Todd, Todd. My team right or wrong my team, right? I've been a fan of the Twins since 1961, their first year in the Twin Cities. I used to ride my bicycle to the old Met and watch them. I have suffered through more years than almost anyone and finally after 26 years celebrated that championship. The thing is that you can cheer for your team, even live and die with your team, but still criticize things and hope things improve.
I never said most of the things you said, I've never argued for contraction, I've never said they should win the Series every year or even get there regularly. What I do gripe about is the horrible trades and awful free agency pickups our moronic GM has made and yes I do believe I could do better and so could about 95% of the posters on this board who have any modicum of baseball sense.
I watched 155 Twins games this year. I read the Star Tribune and STPPP daily online. I read Baseball America and other publications too. I never claimed to be an expert but I know enough about the team and organization to understand things you can't fathom. Have you checked the ratings for the farm system the last few years and how we have slid from near the top to near the bottom? Have you followed the Red Wings, Rock Cats, Ft. Wayne, etc?
I am glad you find it laughable that I stated that Morneau, Span, Maurer and Kubel struggle against GOOD lefties. The key is GOOD. You can throw out the statistics but whenever the game is on the line and the opposing team needs an out, they trot out a GOOD lefty reliever and our guys are punchless. Granted Maurer can hit about anyone, lefty or righty, but GOOD lefties like CC, Petit, Cliff Lee, etc always gave them fits. You know that.
OK, this is my last Twins post because I am sure most posters here are not Twins fans and we can always take it to email but I always find it interesting in life that people who never criticize a team think they are a "better" fan than someone who offers up his opinions when he sees something which can be improved, changed or removed. Go Twins in 2010!!!
ChiefBenderForever
10-14-2009, 03:59 PM
And Johnny, last year Girardi was nearly run out of town on a rail.
Well if they don't get past the Angels I'm sure the lynch mob will be out as always, even here about half the people are calling for Gardys head ! What a fun series Yankees/Dogers would be !
Tbob what happened you seem more bitter than I am about the loss !
nolemmings
10-14-2009, 05:01 PM
1. I never claimed to be a better Twins fan than anyone, nor is it close to correct to suggest I never criticize the team. I've called Nick Punto every vulgar name known to man (repeating most just last Sunday), and have blasted everyone in the organization at one time or another.
2. You've got about 5 years on me, that's it, as I started with the Twins in '66. Yes, I regularly read the Twin Cities papers online, and yes I follow the minor league system. Nope, don't regularly read Baseball America. Don't need to. Want a true confession? I can't tell you what 16 year old kid in South Florida is the next Albert Pujols or what Dominican scout has the most signees in MLB. Want another confession? I couldn't care less, nor does that make me less informed about the team, and no, you couldn't tell me things about the team that I can't fathom, unless of course you want to dwell on those under 18 year olds that you may feel the need to scout.
3. Seems to me you will never be happy. There is not a team on the planet--any sport--that couldn't use improvement or could avoid criticism. That being said, it is a complete turn off to constantly hear whining about things that are irrelevant or that will never change. The Twins will never be in the AL East, or West. They will never outspend the Yankees, Red Sox and Angels, ever. Read that as NEVER, NUNCA, JAMAIS. Still, that awful AL Central has represented the league in the World Series two of the past four years, i.e. more recently than the Yankees.
The Twins will not always get Nathan, Liriano and Bonser for AJ Pierzinski in every trade. And while I wish they could and sometimes delude myself into thinking they should, I don't ask that heads roll when things don't work out. The Twins are one of the most stable and consistent franchises in all of MLB--they are known for it, and it plays a large part in their success. There is simply no need to completely gut management or portions of the team every year because they can't seem to get out of the first round, oftentimes playing an extremely formidable opponent.
4. I see, it's just the "good" lefties we can't hit. You know, like the guys at the top that all teams have trouble hitting. Guess what? I'm betting they couldn't hit Koufax either, and that Steve Carlton would give them fits occasionally. Guess what else? Let's get those tough right handed batters just for such occasion, so we can sit Mauer, Span, Kubel and Morneau.
This grows tiresome, and I am done. So you root your way, and I'll root mine, and we'll both look forward to next season, me with an eye toward stability and you with one for change. GO TWINS.
murcerfan
10-14-2009, 05:03 PM
If Gardy is such an awesome manager and teacher....why does his team run the basepaths like little-leaguers?
murcerfan
10-14-2009, 05:10 PM
that being said....He appears to do very good job of motivating and getting team unity year after year. I also think the twins are better than Toronto and Tampa Bay...TBob makes some very good points above.
Anthony S.
10-14-2009, 05:24 PM
The Twins will not always get Nathan, Liriano and Bonser for AJ Pierzinski in every trade.
Still wake up screaming from that one.
sagard
10-14-2009, 07:06 PM
....You complain about GM Smith, who in two years won the division once and lost game 163 to get edged out in the other....
Smith single handedly cost them the division in '08 and almost cost them the division this year. Wouldn't it have been fun to be in the AL playoffs in '08 with Santana on the hill? No A-Rod waiting to crush us.
This year Delmon/Punto/Gomez did their very best to keep us out for five months.
Gardy manages the team VERY well over the course of a season. He needs to work a bit in game situations. He can't let Gomez take that AB in the 11th during Game 2.
Smith needs to sign Mauer now.