Tuesday Trivia....What TWO HOFers wore #7......

[tedzan]

......from the same team ?

Actually, this quiz could include a 3rd player from this same team....in my book, he should also be in the HOF.


T-Rex TED

[Jacklitsch]

woops

[Rich Klein]

M.Charles M. and the All-American Out

Otherwise known as Mickey Mantle and Leo Durocher

Rich

[tedzan]

As usual you are the Trivia King.

I think that I will have to disqualify you from responding until several respondents have posted :)


OK, who is the 3rd player that I alluded to ? ?


TED Z

[murcerfan]

Old Reliable ?

[tedzan]

Murcerfan

You got it....Tommy Henrich wore #7 from 1939 till when he went into the Coast Guard in Sept 1942.

Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

One of my favorite Yankees when I was growing up in the late 1940's. Tommy was one of the best clutch hitters that ever played the game.

And, a great Right-Fielder, you got love this quote of his......"Catching a flyball is a pleasure, but knowing what to do with it after you catch
it is a business."

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Tommy_Henrich


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

1297 hits, 181 HR and a .282 BA in 11 seasons. Not to take anything away from him, but not exactly a HOF caliber career IMHO.

[roarfrom34]

there are just some people who think every ex-Yankee deserves HOF enshrinement

[Rob D.]

1297 hits, 181 HR and a .282 BA in 11 seasons. Not to take anything away from him, but not exactly a HOF caliber career IMHO.

Did you take into account the super-neato nickname?

[Jim VB]

there are just some people who think every ex-Yankee deserves HOF enshrinement



What's your point?

Certainly Hector Lopez wasn't a "lock", but Moose Skowron, Clete Boyer, Tom Tresh, and Bobby Richardson?

They can just build a new wing if they run out of space.

[tedzan]

In terms of stats, there are several ballplayers in the HOF with numbers that do not equal Henrich's stats (proportional
to years played).

Mazeroski for starters......

.............yrs......AB........H.......HR........ BA......RBI.......R.......OBP......SLA

Maz.........17....7755....2016....138..... .260......853.....769.... .299.... .367

Henrich....11.....4603....1297....181..... .282.....795......901... .382..... .492

NOTE....the significance of RBI's and RUN's in Henrich's stats vs Maz's stats.

Henrich lost 4 yrs of playing time while in the Coast Guard (1942-46)


Peter....did you see him play ?

I did from 1947 - 1950....and this guy was a tremendous clutch hitter, one of the best. That's a factor that does not
show up in the stats. He was in 5 World Series and he was a big factor in the Yankees winning all 5 of them.


And hey, looky here....the Ohio/Texas "tandem dudes" have entered the fray !
By some twisted form of thinking....look for the appearance of a Jack Dunn card to be worked into this thread ? ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted to be sure I did not see him play. But that said, respectfully the fact that his stats on an adjusted basis (and I am not sure it is legitimate to make the adjustment, as the fact remains that he only played 11 years) are comparable to one of the truly weak HOFers does not support the argument, in my view. I just don't think there is even an argument that he should be in the Hall, although that does not mean he was not a very good ballplayer.

EDIT TO ADD Jack Dunn is definitely horizontal. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted do you support his election? 1530 hits, 253 HR, .268 BA, according to Baseball Reference most comparable to Jose Valentin and Bret Boone.

[tedzan]

:) If you are having an LSD trip that causes you to stand perpendicular to the Jack Dunn card, then it might just appear to you to be a "horizontal" :)

Regards

[tedzan]

My understanding why Joe Gordon was elected to the HOF is two-fold......

1) He was an All-Star 2nd baseman (same reason given for Maz's HOF selection)

2) Indeed, he was good enough to be in every All-Star game (9) in his career except his 1st year.


Really, when the discussion comes up of who is in (or not) in the HOF. In my opinion, why Gil Hodges
has been slighted is a big mystery to me. You like to compare stats (and his numbers are great); so,
tell me why Hodges is not in ? ?


TED Z

[Rob D.]

Ted,

If you use the flawed logic that there are players in the Hall of Fame whose stats are just a little bit better than (insert player here), you'll eventually reach a point where every player is worthy of induction.

Bill James has done a great job of showing how flawed the "Well this player's in, so then this player deserves to be in, too" argument is.

As for the horizontal Dunn references, I think most people realize that my posts about the T206 Dunn being a horizontal pose were jabs at you and your continual snotty reactions to most folks when they dare to question anything you might post about the T206 issue. Sorry I couldn't be more clear.

[FrankWakefield]

Hey Ted,

Just saw your thread. Even if I hadn't known the answer, I knew you had to be talking about your Yankees.

So a Cardinals question for you... In honor of one of their Hall of Fame pitchers, the Cardinals retired uniform #17. The question, who was the last Cardinal to wear #17 ?



And the two great Cardinals who's first name was Francis... Frankie Frisch and Cardinal Francis Spellman.

[Matt]

Were the horizontal cards printed differently then the vertical cards?

Edited to say: Rob - did you mean snooty or snotty?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted, given who is in the HOF I think a very good case can be made for Hodges, given the numbers he put up during the 1950s. His career stats come up a bit short, but if Jim Rice is in on the theory that he had an outstanding 10 years stretch, I think (without going back and checking) that Hodges qualifies on that basis too.

EDIT TO ADD Of course the same logic would say Steve Garvey should be in. On balance I would probably not have voted Rice in even though he played for Boston, and say no to Hodges and Garvey as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I assume the question was not meant for Ted alone; 17 was Dizzy Dean.

[Jim VB]

And hey, looky here....the Ohio/Texas "tandem dudes" have entered the fray !

TED Z


I may have lived in Ohio for 10 years, and Texas for the last 4, but I'm a born and raised New York guy.

I am the type guy who has been a Yankee fan my whole life. I was ridiculing the post that suggests that Yankee fans aren't rational about who deserves the Hall of Fame.

Sorry if that attempt at humor sailed right over your head. I'll try to keep it more lowbrow going forward.

[tedzan]

This opinion of yours......
"I think most people realize that my posts about the T206 Dunn being a horizontal pose were jabs at you and
your continual snotty reactions to most folks when they dare to question anything you might post about the
T206 issue."

.....is not shared by as "most" as you imagine. For many years, at the National, at the Philly Show, and many,
many emails that I have received......have been very complimentary to me regarding my theories, posts, etc.
regarding the T206's. Essentially, because I have informed them of certain aspects of the T206 set that they
did not fully understand.

But, if you think I'm a "snotty" dude, there's nothing I can say or do to change your impression of me. And.....
frankly, I don't give a damn !


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

The "17" question is for everyone...

Good try, Peter. But a famous member of the St. Louis Cardinals wore #17 after Dizzy did.

[tbob]

I'm still waiting for this guy to get in. A poll of the top pitchers in the AL of the 60's said this guy was the best hitter in baseball. His career was cut short by knee surgeries but he had a rifle for an arm, speed, and several silver bats in his closet.

1676 6879 6301 870 1917 329 48 220 947 86 55 448 645 .304 .353 .476 .830

[ElCabron]

Tony O.

[tedzan]

Here are the ballplayers that wore #17 on your Cardinals subsequent to Dizzy Dean......

1945 Augie Bergamo
1946 unknown
1947 unknown
1948 unknown
1949 Joe Garagiola
1950 Joe Garigiola
1951 Joe Garigiola
1952 Les Fusselmann
1953 Sal Yvars
1954 Vic Raschi
1955 Mel Wright

When did they retire Dizzy's uniform # ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm still waiting for this guy to get in. A poll of the top pitchers in the AL of the 60's said this guy was the best hitter in baseball. His career was cut short by knee surgeries but he had a rifle for an arm, speed, and several silver bats in his closet.

1676 6879 6301 870 1917 329 48 220 947 86 55 448 645 .304 .353 .476 .830


Oliva I assume.

[FrankWakefield]

The Cards got around to retiring #17 in 1974.

Where did you get such great uniform number information, oh Dinosaur???

[Kawika]

Frank: Baseball Almanac.com has year-by-year team rosters complete with uniform numbers.
http://baseball-almanac.com/teammenu.shtml
(pick a team and look for "franchise facts at a glance")

DMcD
Young Dinosaur

[base_ball]

Mickey Mantle and Ed Kranepool....just kidding...Mantle and Leo Durocher, as stated below. Leo was the first Yankee to wear the number in 1929, the first year the team used numbers.

[tedzan]

You asked......
" Where did you get such great uniform number information, oh Dinosaur??? "

John D. in Florida (a good ole buddy originally from St Lo) provided me the info
from his scorecard/programs).

John has an immense Cardinals collection.

T-Rex TED

[packs]

What do you guys think of Gavvy Cravath's HOF credentials? I know I'm off topic, but similar career lengths and numbers, although obviously from a different period of baseball.

[Peter_Spaeth]

:) If you are having an LSD trip that causes you to stand perpendicular to the Jack Dunn card, then it might just appear to you to be a "horizontal" :)

Regards

LOL Ted. Seriously, the position of his glove does not make sense to me if you think the card is vertical. One does not catch a pop fly with the glove turned in towards one's face, rather, the glove would be turned away from the face. In my opinion. Also if you assume the card is vertical he is leaning back at a weird angle and must have the most supple neck in history.

[White Borders]

LOL Ted. Seriously, the position of his glove does not make sense to me if you think the card is vertical. One does not catch a pop fly with the glove turned in towards one's face, rather, the glove would be turned away from the face. In my opinion. Also if you assume the card is vertical he is leaning back at a weird angle and must have the most supple neck in history.

hmmmmm.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh so Dunn is making an over the shoulder grab on the run, I get it, now if only we could explain the strange angle at which he is leaning back and the rubber neck.

[tedzan]

Craig....I was going to respond to Peter, but your pix of Willie Mays' great catch speaks louder
than any thing I could say.

But, I'll ask this, anyhow.

Hey Peter......

When you played BB in your youth (or now), what position did (or do) you play and how did you
prepare to catch a sky-high fly ?

Incidently, Jack Dunn played SS and 3rd base for most of his career. Therefore, you can bet that
he had to catch many a sky-high fly and his T206 pose shows exactly how he did it.


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted at any position assuming I were not doing the Willie Mays over the shoulder thing and I was facing a ball coming AT me, my glove would be turned the other way. You don't catch a ball with the glove turned in. Would you? And note how if you look at it horizontally both his face and the glove are perfectly aligned with the orientation of the card. Coincidence?

[Anthony S.]

So I'm the only person that realizes it's a diagonal?

[Peter_Spaeth]

That illustrates how far back he is leaning (on a ball coming towards him) if the pose is vertical.

[Matt]

I asked above but it got buried. Weren't all the cards printed vertically? If so, what is this discussion really about?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill G. says horizontal.

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=3721

[Anthony S.]

I asked above but it got buried. Weren't all the cards printed vertically? If so, what is this discussion really about?

For me it was simply an opportunity to practice my limited photoshop skills...

[tedzan]

The undisputed SIX horizontal cards in the T206 set were printed in the 1st (150) series.
and were issued in 1909. American Litho. produced the T206's in basic formats of 6 cards
throughout all the T206 series. Now, observe closely these 6 horizontal cards shown here.
You cannot confuse them with all the rest of the 518 VERTICALLY printed cards, as their
background scenes are also HORIZONTALLY arrayed.

There are no HORIZONTAL cards found in the 350 series (of which Jack Dunn's card is in),
nor are there any HORIZONTAL cards found in the 460 series. If there were, there would
be FIVE additional such cards.

If you chose to think that Dunn is a HORIZONTAL card, then that's your prerogative. How-
ever, those of us who have gained insight into how these cards were produced know that
this Dunn card is just another one of the 518 VERTICAL cards in the T206 set.


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a6horizontalt206.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z

[ElCabron]

Where is Dunn looking if it's an over the shoulder catch? Did the ball soar out to left field and then get caught in a tornado that blew it back to the infield?

The only way that's an over the shoulder catch is if it was a high pop up around the mound and he misplayed it by running in too far toward home plate before turning around and making an over the shoulder stab at it. He's looking almost straight up, not back behind him.

Can't believe I'm posting in a T206 thread. Sometimes there are moments that reflect back to you exactly where you're at in life and you realize you hate what you've become.

-Ryan

[packs]

I don't think its the print run that determines if a card is horizontal or not. It may be that the definitely horizontal cards were printed at one time, but why does that mean a horizontal card couldn't have just been conceived later?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted those are certainly good points, especially that the other clearly horizontal cards have horizons. The pose just doesn't make sense to me, I guess if I had to argue it was vertical I would say he had his back to the plate and was chasing fly in short left field or foul territory.

[Matt]

I don't think its the print run that determines if a card is horizontal or not. It may be that the definitely horizontal cards were printed at one time, but why does that mean a horizontal card couldn't have just been conceived later?

I agree.

[tedzan]

I fully agree with your......
"I would say he had his back to the plate and was chasing a fly in short left field or foul territory.

Unfortunately, American Litho. (ALC) designed this Jack Dunn card with a solid background. Had
they drawn it with a scenic background, we wouldn't be going thru this silly exercise. Perhaps,
some one will find the source photo that ALC used to create this Dunn card; and then, we will
have a better understanding of this pose.


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Conicidentally this was just discovered this morning :)