1872 Warren CDVs of Boston players - what did original composite look like? [Archive]

orator1

09-08-2009, 12:58 PM

The current Heritage auction has five 1872 CDVs from the George Wright Collection, and it appears they were once part of a Boston team composite. Has anyone ever seen a picture of the original composite before it was dismantled?
Was it a unique team composite or do other 1872 Warren CDV Boston team composites exist?

I'd like to see what the original looked like, so if anyone can post one I'd appreciate it.

http://www.ha.com/common/search_items.php?txtSearch=1872+boston&ic=homepage_search&hdnSearch=true&optGlobalSearch=1

barrysloate

09-08-2009, 02:59 PM

I sold the piece intact in my November, 2006 auction. I am unable to scan but I can describe it to you: the eleven CdV's were laid out on a mount roughly in the shape of a clock, with Harry Wright placed in the center and the other ten players in a circle. Then a mat with eleven oval apertures was placed on top. The result was a composite of the team.

The reason many of them have clipped corners is that they original photographer had trouble fitting them in the circle. The piece was quite beautiful as a display. I think it was greatly compromised when it was broken up, but that was what the owner chose to do.

Matt

09-08-2009, 03:05 PM

More info:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82990

barrysloate

09-08-2009, 03:12 PM

Thanks Matt. I didn't remember that there was a thread about it.

prewarsports

09-08-2009, 04:42 PM

There should also be a thread from when it was originally on ebay. I was the underbidder (Barry beat me out) and I am still kicking myself for not going higher but 12K was all the money I had in the world in about 2006.

Rhys

barrysloate

09-08-2009, 04:43 PM

Rhys- my snipe was at least 25K, so you had a long way to go.:)

Joe_G.

09-08-2009, 04:58 PM

I thought it was a fantastic find and saved the images as follows (without and with matte). I had hoped that the collection would stay together but it wasn't to be.

barrysloate

09-08-2009, 05:02 PM

Thanks Joe. I don't even have an image saved of the original piece. One of these days I'll make it into the 21st century.:(

orator1

09-09-2009, 09:30 AM

Thank you for the information Barry and Matt, and especially Joe G. for posting those images. It's unfortunate that the original composite has been dismantled.

I'd like to see if we can complete a virtual set of the 11 CDVs from this composite since the CDVs from the auction photo are blurry.

I posted Andy Leonard and Fraley Rogers in the initial post. The other 3 CDVs from Heritage are below, which include Harry Wright, George Wright, and Albert Spalding. I found Harry Schaefer's CDV on rea and posted it below. That leaves 5 more players from this one-of-a-kind composite.

If you can post a good resolution photo of any of the remaining 5 CDVs, please do so. At least the 11 CDVs will remain "virtually" together on this website.:)

mzm55

09-09-2009, 09:56 AM

I'm "guilty" of owning the Ryan, here is a scan of it:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m84/mzm55cards/ryancdv-1.jpg

barrysloate

09-09-2009, 10:25 AM

Johnny Ryan is the curiosity of the group as there is no record of him ever playing for Boston.

19cbb

09-09-2009, 11:03 AM

Scott Forrest wrote an article on Ryan for VCBC.

barrysloate

09-09-2009, 11:06 AM

Jimmy- do you recall the issue #?

GaryPassamonte

09-09-2009, 11:55 AM

This is not the one from the composite, but still an example.

19cbb

09-09-2009, 12:02 PM

Jimmy- do you recall the issue #?

I don't recall the issue number, but I think the title of the article was "Finding Johnny Ryan"

orator1

09-09-2009, 12:29 PM

Thanks Gary for posting the Barnes CDV and mzm55 for the Ryan CDV.
That leaves only 3 more out of the 11.
Who are the remaining players from the composite that have not yet been posted?

kkkkandp

09-09-2009, 12:56 PM

I've got a Cal McVey I can contribute when I get home from work.

drc

09-09-2009, 01:02 PM

I haven't seen the composite, but a good possibility is it had the CDVs organized in a pattern with a piece of cardboard placed over it-- on the order of below.

http://www.cycleback.com/photoguide/mounted_files/image012.jpg

barrysloate

09-09-2009, 01:33 PM

David- I'm sure the large composite was either reshot for a CdV, or at least that was the plan. But to date no example has been found of that image.

benjulmag

09-09-2009, 01:48 PM

David- I'm sure the large composite was either reshot for a CdV, or at least that was the plan. But to date no example has been found of that image.

It was probably the plan. However, the absence of caligraphy on the mount coupled with there being no known CdV of the composite suggests this "proof" was never reshot for a CdV.

Jim VB

09-09-2009, 01:58 PM

Jimmy- do you recall the issue #?

Barry,

Just flipped through them. It's in issue #37, page 53.

barrysloate

09-09-2009, 01:59 PM

Thanks Jim. That's one of the last issues.

Edited to add #38 was the last.

barrysloate

09-09-2009, 02:02 PM

Scott says that Ryan was a substitute for the 1872 Boston team but never had an at bat. That would explain it.

aaroncc

09-09-2009, 05:29 PM

Not mine but here is another.

orator1

09-09-2009, 08:05 PM

Checking the SCBC it appears that the last CDV on this composite would be Charlie Gould. 10 out of 11 CDVs so far. One more image and we have the complete photographic checklist for this composite.

By the way, the 2008 SCBC does not list the 1872 Albert Spalding CDV that is found in this composite.

19cbb

09-09-2009, 09:14 PM

From the original thread (2006)

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82125

http://runscott.homestead.com/files/1872SM.JPG

Jim VB

09-09-2009, 09:26 PM

From the original thread (2006)

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82125

http://runscott.homestead.com/files/1872SM.JPG

I've got to say Barry. George Wright looks more than a little bit like Cosmo Kramer!

Absolutely great thread, by the way!

barrysloate

09-10-2009, 04:28 AM

Cosmo Kramer got a bit gray and balding. I saw the preview for the new Curb season.

GaryPassamonte

09-10-2009, 05:22 AM

As an observation, it seems every CdV except my Barnes has the Warren credit on the front. Does anyone remember others with the credit on the reverse?

GaryPassamonte

09-10-2009, 07:54 AM

I have a second thought as I look at my Barnes' CdV. Is there any possibility the front was signed by Barnes. Compare the writing to the Barnes' autograph on the Warren cabinet in Sotheby's 12/2005 auction lot 1. Notice the B's. How big of a stretch?

barrysloate

09-10-2009, 08:07 AM

Would he sign only his last name and not include his first? Possibly, but I would guess someone else wrote it.

aaroncc

09-10-2009, 11:07 AM

Not mine but here is the last one.

orator1

09-10-2009, 05:04 PM

For those like me who don't recognize all the players, below is the CDV order in the composite.

On a related note, the SCBC lists two 1872 Warren CDVs of Harry Wright - one in "street clothes" and one "in uniform". Does anyone have Harry's CDV "in uniform" that you can post? That image would complete the SCBC checklist.

barrysloate

09-10-2009, 05:14 PM

There were both a Harry and George Wright Warren CdV in uniform at the Legendary Auction at the National.

19cbb

09-10-2009, 05:53 PM

Weren't the 'uniform' photos shot in 1874?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/19cbb/1874BOS.jpg

barrysloate

09-10-2009, 06:13 PM

They were shot in more than one year. If you look at the 1874 team photo, Harry Wright has a full beard. But if you look at the individual Warren cabinets or CdV's, Harry has mutton chops but no beard.

It is my theory that Wright grew his beard in 1874 and kept it until he died. And I am the only person in America who has developed a theory about Wright's facial hair ( I think).

But even the Warren cabinets may have been shot in two different years, as two styles are known.

orator1

09-10-2009, 07:18 PM

As Barry mentioned, the following CDVs were recently sold by Legendary. They were dated as 1874.

By the way, the SCBC does not have any listings for 1874 Warren Studio Boston CDVs.
The 1872 CDV list has Harry Wright "in uniform" but omits George Wright "in uniform".

So are these:
1. the only two 1874 Warren CDVs of Boston players
or
2. are they part of the 1872 Warren CDV "set"?
If it's 1872 why would they be the only two players wearing uniforms?

barrysloate

09-11-2009, 03:24 AM

I would guess both those CdV's are 1872.

Matt

09-11-2009, 06:29 AM

Richard Merkin's rendition:
http://gallerydriver.com/Art/George-t.jpg

cozmokramer

09-13-2009, 06:10 PM

could anyone guess how many of these are out there?

barrysloate

09-13-2009, 06:17 PM

Most of the CdV's, both the street clothes and uniform poses, are anywhere from unique (such as the Spalding), to just a few known, say in the range of 2-3 each.

There are Warren cabinets and those are more "common" than the CdV's, but still quite rare.

cozmokramer

09-14-2009, 11:20 AM

I'll probably be posting up bids one the HA ones...

but if anyone here that has one might be interested in selling please contact me.

orator1

09-14-2009, 12:15 PM

Issue #34 of VCBC magazine shows this 1872 CDV of Jim O'Rourke in an article about the National Association. He joined Boston in 1873 after playing for the Middletown Mansfields in 1872.

Could this be an uncatalogued Warren CDV even though there is no Warren identification on the front? It's hard to tell but it appears that O'Rourke's name is handwritten on front. The card back was not pictured in the magazine.

If anybody can post a better image of this CDV, including the back showing possible Warren id, please do so. The only image I've seen of this CDV is the black and white copy from the magazine.

Has anyone seen this CDV offered at auction before?
It may be one of a kind.

Baseball Rarities

09-14-2009, 12:21 PM

The O'Rourke CDV was lot #797 in the 1991 Sotheby's Copeland sale. The catalog notes that it is marked "Warren" on the reverse.

I believe that all of the images on these CDV's (except for Ryan, Gould and McVey who were not on the team) are the same that were used in the 1873 Boston team cabinet card that was produced by Richardson.

GaryPassamonte

09-14-2009, 02:56 PM

Reverse of my Barnes' CdV.

orator1

09-14-2009, 09:05 PM

Thanks Gary for posting that back and Kevin for the lot# on the Sotheby's Copeland auction. I haven't viewed the Copeland auction catalog before so I just ordered one.

h2oya311

10-02-2014, 09:16 AM

Figured I'd lift this thread back to the top with my recent acquisition and brief discussion on the October Pickups thread. This O'Rourke is the same one from the 1991 Sotheby's "Copeland" Auction that Kevin mentioned earlier in this thread:

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/personal/websize/1872%20OquRourke.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1872%20OquRourke%20_back_.jpg

As you can see, my O'Rourke has the same reverse and writing on front as Gary's R. Barnes. The Copeland Auction also had these two CDV's of G. Wright and Cal McVey (scans courtesy of Bruce Garland). They, too, have the same pencil writing on front.

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/personal/websize/Wright%20and%20McVey%20-%201872%20Warren%20CDV.jpg

One would assume that all of these "pencil notation" Warren CDV's would have been issued during the same year. All Warren CDV's are commonly thought to have been issued in 1872. However, O'Rourke didn't join the Boston club until 1873 and McVey left the club after the 1872 season to play for Baltimore before coming back to play in 1874. The only season that all four (G. Wright, J. O'Rourke, C. McVey, and R. Barnes) played for Boston was in 1874 and 1875. I believe these particular Warren Studio CDV's were all issued in 1874 and/or 1875. If a Jack Manning, Jumbo Latham, or Frank Heifer ever materialize, we could conclude that they were issued in 1875, otherwise, it would be impossible to know for sure.

Any thoughts?

barrysloate

10-02-2014, 10:19 AM

Runscott

10-02-2014, 10:27 AM

Here's a page that I created many years ago. Unfortunately the quality of the opening page has been degraded, for unknown reasons :(

I created this page back in the old days, when web-page creators gave credit for the images they used :)

http://www.t206themonster.com/1872boston.html

h2oya311

10-02-2014, 11:48 AM

Warren issued these baseball images for several years. I think we once determined that the Warren cabinets were issued between 1872 and 1874, but I forget what the analysis was. They did come with different background styles, suggesting at minimum different photo shoots.

Barry, perhaps I should have been more clear. I was referring only to those CDVs with the "pencil names" on bottom w/ the Warren Studio credit on the rear of the CDV. I have no doubt that the analysis done on the other Warren Studio CDV's and cabinets w/ the credit on the front bottom left is sound w/r/t the dating.

Scott, looks like some of the links to the CDV's point to the wrong player at times. It's a cool concept though.

edited to add: I looked back at the thread and saw that Kevin referred to an 1873 Boston Team Cabinet Photo by Richardson (sold by Mastro in 2007). It does appear that the O'Rourke image is the same as the one on my CDV, suggesting that the image was taken in 1873 (O'Rourke's first year on the club). It's interesting that McVey was not on the club that year but the background and style of his CDV are similar to those of O'Rourke, Wright, McVey, and Barnes. Do we know when McVey left for Baltimore (or returned to Boston)? Perhaps these were taken in the offseason?

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/personal/websize/Richardson%20Boston%20Baseball%20Team%20Cabinet%20-%201873.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/personal/websize/Richardson%20Boston%20Baseball%20Team%20Cabinet%20-%201873%20_back_.jpg

JeremyW

10-02-2014, 04:04 PM

I'm not sure if this helps the discussion at all, but here's an image I saved.

GaryPassamonte

08-28-2019, 05:13 PM

Given the Ryan is for sale in the BST section, I thought I'd resurrect this thread and see if there are any updates.

This image is from the Spalding exhibit in Bryon, Il. I've seen the two Wrights in uniform in cdv form, but not the rest.

barrysloate

08-28-2019, 06:36 PM

Thanks for resurrecting this thread Gary, I enjoyed reading through it. This was one of my favorite finds. As I recall, I bought this as a display piece, and planned to sell it as a display piece. And then one day I had a eureka moment, and it hit me that this wasn't actually a mammoth photo but a composite of eleven individual CdV's. I hated to see it broken up, but it was clear to me that that was where it was headed.

The Ryan on BST was the first one I've seen for sale in many years. And of course the highlight of the group was Al Spalding. There are plenty of photos of both Wrights and O'Rourke, but individual photos of Spalding are very scarce.

bgar3

08-28-2019, 06:43 PM

I now have the George Wright?

h2oya311

08-29-2019, 09:56 AM

I now have the George Wright?

awesome Bruce!!

barrysloate

08-29-2019, 10:16 AM

That's a keeper Bruce!

bgar3

08-29-2019, 11:13 AM

barrysloate

08-29-2019, 02:54 PM

Agree Barry and thanks Derek, missed you this summer.
Gary, I may be wrong, but I think the uniform photos on the item you posted exist in autographed form in someone’s collection. They are great, but so is your team cabinet.

Sotheby's had a near complete group of signed Warren cabinets, something like 11 out of the 13 known. And the other two were in a Mastro Auction that closed the night before the Saturday afternoon Sotheby's Auction. I know there is a story there, I just don't know what the story is.

I was part of a group bidding on the 11 at Sotheby's, but the lot went to the collector who got the two in Mastro. So he now has the complete set of 13. They were really something special.