T206 OLD MILL survey......UPDATED

[tedzan]

I have received several requests to reprise the OLD MILL thread from a year ago. Some had difficulty
with the SEARCH function to recover this survey, others did not know of its existence....so, here it is
with some new OLD MILL inputs added to the list.


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abstarsoldmillsurvey.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


UPDATED......8/21/09......confirmed OLD MILL subjects = 298


Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Abbott
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ames (hands above head)
Anderson
Atz
Baker
Ball (Cleveland)
Batch
Bates
Beck
Bell (pitching)
Bender (portrait)
Bender (no trees)
Bender (trees)
Bergen (bat)
Bergen (catching)
Berger
Bescher (arms in air)
Birmingham
Blackburne
Bliss
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bradley (bat)
Brain
Bransfield
Bresnahan (portrait)
Bridwell (no cap)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
M. Brown (portrait)
M. Brown (Chicago)
G. Brown (Washington)
Burch (fielding)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Campbell
Casey
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chance (bat)
Chase (portrait-pink)
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (white cap)
Chase (dark cap)
Chase (trophy)
Chesbro
F. Clarke (portrait)
F. Clarke (bat)
Clarke (Cleveland)
Cobb (portrait-green)
Cobb (portrait-red)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Conroy (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Covaleski
Crandall (no cap)
Cravath
Crawford (throwing)
Crawford (bat)
Cree
Criss
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Davis
Harry Davis (A's)
George Davis (Chicago)
Delehanty (Washington)
Devlin
Dineen
Donlin (seated)
Donlin (bat)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolan (bat)
Doolin
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Dubuc
Duffy
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Durham
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (Washington-portrait)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferris
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Flick
Ford
Frill
Freeman
Fromme
Gandil
Gasper
Geyer
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Griffith (portrait)
Griffith (bat)
Hahn
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Herzog (Boston)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howell (hands at waist)
Hulswitt
Hummel
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jackson
Jennings (portrait)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (portrait)
Johnson (pitching)
Jones (Detroit)
F. Jones (hips)
F. Jones (portrait)
Jordan (portrait)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (portrait)
Joss (pitching)
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Kelley
Killian (pitching)
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Kleinow (Boston-catching)
Kleinow (New York-bat)
Kling
Knight (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (St Louis-ball)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Latham
Lavender
Leach (portrait)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Livingstone
Lobert
Lumley
Magee (bat)
Manning (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (hands/side)
Marquard (throwing)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McCormick
McGlynn
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers
Milligan
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Murphy (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Myers (fielding)
Needham
Nichols (bat)
Nicholls (fielding)
Oakes
Oberlin
Oldring (bat)
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (portrait)
Overall (yellow sky)
Overall (blue sky)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Payne
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeffer
Pfeister (seated)
Pfeister (throwing)
Powell (horizontal)
Purtell
Quillen
Reulbach (no glove)
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Rucker (throwing)
Rudolph
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (bat)
Schlei (portrait)
Schmidt (throwing)
Schulte (back view)
Scott
Seymour (portrait)
Seymour (throwing)
Sheckard (no glove)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (catching)
Spade
Stahl (glove)
Stanage
Steinfeldt (bat)
Stephens
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Stovall (bat)
Street (catching)
Sullivan
Sweeney (Boston)
Sweeney (New York)
L. Tannehill (Chicago)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Tannehill (follow thru)
Taylor
Tenney
Thomas
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands/knees)
Tinker (bat on)
Tinker (bat off)
Titus
Turner
Unglaub
Waddell (throwing)
Waddell (portrait)
Wagner (left shoulder)
Wagner (right shoulder)
Wallace
Walsh
Warhop
Weimer
Wheat
White (Chicago-portrait)
White (Chicago-pitching)
White (Buffalo)
Wilhelm (hands/chest)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Williams
Willis (Pittsburg)
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wilson
Wright
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Wiltse (no cap)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)
CYoung (glove)
Irv Young
Zimmerman

Adding the 48 Southern Leaguers to this list of OLD MILL's, yields a grand total = 346

Hey guys and gals, check-out your T206's. Let's see if there are anymore OLD MILL's
that we haven't accounted for here ?


TED Z

[carrigansghost]

Hi Ted, VCP lists a Carrigan with an Old Mill back, but I doubt one exists. Please tell me that it doesn't.

Rawn

[tedzan]

I've never seen Carrigan with an Old Mill back. And, I've checked several surveys and they don't have him, either.

But, you never know with "the Monster"....this card could still show up.


TED Z

[carrigansghost]

I guess I'll have to wait and see if I'll ever complete his type set.

Thanks Ted

Rawn

[tedzan]

I have received several requests to reprise the OLD MILL thread from a year ago. Some had difficulty
with the SEARCH function to recover this survey, others did not know of its existence....so, here it is
with some new OLD MILL inputs added to the list.


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abstarsoldmillsurvey.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


UPDATED......8/25/09......confirmed OLD MILL subjects = 299


Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Abbott
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ames (hands above head)
Anderson
Atz
Baker
Ball (Cleveland)
Batch
Bates
Beck
Bell (pitching)
Bender (portrait)
Bender (no trees)
Bender (trees)
Bergen (bat)
Bergen (catching)
Berger
Bescher (arms in air)
Birmingham
Blackburne
Bliss
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bradley (bat)
Brain
Bransfield
Bresnahan (portrait)
Bridwell (no cap)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
M. Brown (portrait)
M. Brown (Chicago)
G. Brown (Washington)
Burch (fielding)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Campbell
Casey
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chance (bat)
Chase (portrait-pink)
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (white cap)
Chase (dark cap)
Chase (trophy)
Chesbro
F. Clarke (portrait)
F. Clarke (bat)
Clarke (Cleveland)
Cobb (portrait-green)
Cobb (portrait-red)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Conroy (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Covaleski
Crandall (no cap)
Cravath
Crawford (throwing)
Crawford (bat)
Cree
Criss
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Davis
Harry Davis (A's)
George Davis (Chicago)
Delehanty (Washington)
Devlin
Dineen
Donlin (seated)
Donlin (bat)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolan (bat)
Doolin
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Dubuc
Duffy
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Durham
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (Washington-portrait)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferris
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Flick
Ford
Frill
Freeman
Fromme
Gandil
Gasper
Geyer
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Griffith (portrait)
Griffith (bat)
Hahn
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Herzog (Boston)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howell (hand at waist)
Hulswitt
Hummel
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jackson
Jennings (portrait)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (portrait)
Johnson (pitching)
Jones (Detroit)
F. Jones (hips)
F. Jones (portrait)
Jordan (portrait)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (portrait)
Joss (pitching)
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Kelley
Killian (pitching)
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Kleinow (Boston-catching)
Kleinow (New York-bat)
Kling
Knight (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (St Louis-ball)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Latham
Lavender
Leach (portrait)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Livingstone
Lobert
Lumley
Magee (bat)
Manning (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (hands/side)
Marquard (throwing)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McCormick
McGlynn
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers
Milligan
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Murphy (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Needham
Nichols (bat)
Nicholls (fielding)
Oakes
Oberlin
Oldring (bat)
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (portrait)
Overall (yellow sky)
Overall (blue sky)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Payne
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeffer
Pfeister (seated)
Pfeister (throwing)
Powell (horizontal)
Purtell
Quillen
Reulbach (no glove)
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Ritchey
Rucker portrait)
Rucker (throwing)
Rudolph
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (bat)
Schlei (portrait)
Schmidt (throwing)
Schulte (back view)
Scott
Seymour (portrait)
Seymour (throwing)
Sheckard (no glove)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (catching)
Spade
Stahl (glove)
Stanage
Steinfeldt (bat)
Stephens
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Stovall (bat)
Street (catching)
Sullivan
Sweeney (Boston)
Sweeney (New York)
L. Tannehill (Chicago)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Tannehill (follow thru)
Taylor
Tenney
Thomas
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands/knees)
Tinker (bat on)
Tinker (bat off)
Titus
Turner
Unglaub
Waddell (throwing)
Waddell (portrait)
Wagner (left shoulder)
Wagner (right shoulder)
Wallace
Walsh
Warhop
Weimer
Wheat
White (Chicago-portrait)
White (Chicago-pitching)
White (Buffalo)
Wilhelm (hands/chest)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Williams
Willis (Pittsburg)
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wilson
Wright
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Wiltse (no cap)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)
CYoung (glove)
Irv Young
Zimmerman

Adding the 48 Southern Leaguers to this list of OLD MILL's, yields a grand total = 347

Hey guys & gals, check-out your T206's. Let's see if there are any more OLD MILL's that we have not
accounted for here ?


TED Z

[cfc1909]

I have been collecting the Baltimore T206 set for about 12 years. The Baltimore team has nine players pictured in the t206 set. The only two Baltimore players I know of with Old Mill are Dunn and Jackson and I have seen many Ol Mill examples of each Dunn and Jackson. Cassidy may exist but I have never seen one. Cassidy may be confused with Casey. Not too long ago I saw a Carolina Brights Jackson that I thought did not exist-so it is possible for Cassidy Old Mill but I would need to see it.

I think the minor league players in the t206 set were cut short. I think Old Mill continued to print the major league players but put a stop on the minor leaguers to make way for the T210 set which is all minor league players. I think the minor league players were introduced in the t206 set in early to mid 1910 and I am pretty sure the t210 set was introduced about this same time and this put a stop to the t206 Old Mill minor league run.

Lets see how many minor league t206 Old Mills that can be confirmed.

[Pup6913]

Sold a Ross Helm SL OM backed T206 on Ebay a bit back. Here is a pic since it was not on the list.

[cfc1909]

Ted didn't list out the southern league players, he just said add the 48 southern players to the total-since all 48 come with the Old Mill south back-but still thanks for your input. Every little bit helps..:D

one more thing-very nice t205 pick ups-I love the M. Brown and the Johnson-killer cards.

[tedzan]

I removed Cassidy from the confirmed list. Now, let's see if Cassidy shows up again. Perhaps,
your explanation of Cassidy being confused with Casey led to this incorrect input.

Your theory is very plausible regarding the lack of regular Minor Leaguer's (ML) with OLD MILL
backs.
To date only 33....of the 86 ML subjects....have been confirmed. And, the greater majority of
them are from the Eastern League (old International Lge.).

Furthermore, you will find it very interesting to know that 95% of the 350/460 Series and the
460-only Series T206's (total of 109 cards), printed in 1911 (which was after the T210 issue),
are found with OLD MILL backs.
I would think this fact certainly provides added support for your theory.


TED Z

[jimonym]

Jim,

I've been following and tracking Old Mills for a while, sometimes more actively than others. I've seen relatively few minor leaguers. Here are my numbers.

Eastern League = 47 total cards / 18 confirmed with Old Mill / 38%
American Association = 39 total cards / 14 confirmed with Old Mill / 36%

350-only Series National League = 61 total cards / 22 confirmed with Old Mill / 36%
350-only Series American League = 63 total cards / 31 confirmed with Old Mill / 49%

It wasn't just the minor leaguers who were short-printed with Old Mill.

BTW, I've only seen the two Baltimore players you mentioned.

Jamie

[tedzan]

Jamie....great stuff....thanks for that info.


I have received several requests to reprise the OLD MILL thread from a year ago. Some had difficulty
with the SEARCH function to recover this survey, others did not know of its existence....so, here it is
with some new OLD MILL inputs added to the list.


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abstarsoldmillsurvey.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


UPDATED......8/26/09......confirmed OLD MILL subjects = 300


Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Abbott
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ames (hands above head)
Anderson
Atz
Baker
Ball (Cleveland)
Batch
Bates
Beck
Bell (pitching)
Bender (portrait)
Bender (no trees)
Bender (trees)
Bergen (bat)
Bergen (catching)
Berger
Bescher (arms in air)
Birmingham
Blackburne
Bliss
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bradley (bat)
Brain
Bransfield
Bresnahan (portrait)
Bridwell (no cap)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
M. Brown (portrait)
M. Brown (Chicago)
G. Brown (Washington)
Burch (fielding)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Campbell
Casey
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chance (bat)
Chase (portrait-pink)
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (white cap)
Chase (dark cap)
Chase (trophy)
Chesbro
F. Clarke (portrait)
F. Clarke (bat)
Clarke (Cleveland)
Cobb (portrait-green)
Cobb (portrait-red)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Conroy (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Covaleski
Crandall (no cap)
Cravath
Crawford (throwing)
Crawford (bat)
Cree
Criss
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Davis
Harry Davis (A's)
George Davis (Chicago)
Delehanty (Washington)
Devlin
Dineen
Donlin (seated)
Donlin (bat)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolan (bat)
Doolin
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Dubuc
Duffy
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Durham
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (Washington-portrait)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferris
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Flick
Ford
Frill
Freeman
Fromme
Gandil
Gasper
Geyer
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Griffith (portrait)
Griffith (bat)
Hahn
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Herzog (Boston)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howell (hand at waist)
Hulswitt
Hummel
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jackson
Jennings (portrait)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (portrait)
Johnson (pitching)
Jones (Detroit)
F. Jones (hips)
F. Jones (portrait)
Jordan (portrait)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (portrait)
Joss (pitching)
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Kelley
Killian (pitching)
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Kleinow (Boston-catching)
Kleinow (New York-bat)
Kling
Knight (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (St Louis-ball)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Latham
Lavender
Leach (portrait)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (pitching)
Leifield (bat)
Livingstone
Lobert
Lumley
Magee (bat)
Manning (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (hands/side)
Marquard (throwing)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McCormick
McGlynn
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers
Milligan
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Murphy (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Needham
Nichols (bat)
Nicholls (fielding)
Oakes
Oberlin
Oldring (bat)
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (portrait)
Overall (yellow sky)
Overall (blue sky)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Payne
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeffer
Pfeister (seated)
Pfeister (throwing)
Powell (horizontal)
Purtell
Quillen
Reulbach (no glove)
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Ritchey
Rucker portrait)
Rucker (throwing)
Rudolph
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (bat)
Schlei (portrait)
Schmidt (throwing)
Schulte (back view)
Scott
Seymour (portrait)
Seymour (throwing)
Sheckard (no glove)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (catching)
Spade
Stahl (glove)
Stanage
Steinfeldt (bat)
Stephens
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Stovall (bat)
Street (catching)
Sullivan
Sweeney (Boston)
Sweeney (New York)
L. Tannehill (Chicago)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Tannehill (follow thru)
Taylor
Tenney
Thomas
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands/knees)
Tinker (bat on)
Tinker (bat off)
Titus
Turner
Unglaub
Waddell (throwing)
Waddell (portrait)
Wagner (left shoulder)
Wagner (right shoulder)
Wallace
Walsh
Warhop
Weimer
Wheat
White (Chicago-portrait)
White (Chicago-pitching)
White (Buffalo)
Wilhelm (hands/chest)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Williams
Willis (Pittsburg)
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wilson
Wright
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Wiltse (no cap)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)
CYoung (glove)
Irv Young
Zimmerman

Adding the 48 Southern Leaguers to this list of OLD MILL's, yields a grand total = 348

Hey guys & gals, check-out your T206's. Let's see if there are any more OLD MILL's that we have not
accounted for here ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Your 350-only series Minor League data compares with mine (32 subjects vs 33 subjects, respectfully).

And, your 350-only series Major League data further reinforces the theory that during 1910, American
Lithographic focused their OLD MILL production on their T210 issue.

My data then shows that 104 of the 109 subjects in the 350/460 series and 460-only are found with
OLD MILL backs. So, it looks like Am. Litho. switched back to printing the OLD MILL T206's after their
T210 press runs were completed.


TED Z

[frohme]

This was in a recent SCC auction - Leifield pitching. No back scan, but it is slabbed, for what that's worth. :rolleyes:

http://www.auctionscc.com/archive/20090723/graded-baseball/29/

--
Mike

[cfc1909]

Very interesting numbers. Possible the whole t206 Old Mill run was stopped to make way for t210. As you guys know I collect the 206 set but my passion is Baltimore so my thoughts on the 206 Old Mill run was focused on the minor league. Looks like Jamie has nailed it, thanks great research.

[ChrisStufflestreet]

While we're discussing T206 vs. T210 Old Mill...I recall seeing an ad for Old Mill cigarettes on the old Net54 that explained there were two cards (that we now know as T206) in each pack. But I've never gotten a straight answer...were there two T210s in each pack? I'm thinking no, but the experts here may have found a more definitive answer.

[White Borders]

When I count the cards in the list: "UPDATED......8/25/09......confirmed OLD MILL subjects = 300" I only get 299. Could someone with more fingers and toes than I have count them, and post your tally, please.

Even if it is off by one, Ted you've done another great service to the hobby! :)

Warmest Regards,
Craig

[jimonym]

Chris,
I have posted pictures of the full run of Old Mill ads on my website, http://www.jimonym.com

The captions on almost all the ads do indicate that there was more than one "baseball picture" in each package of cigarettes. I have seen the ad series run through the fall of 1910 in a Texas newspaper with the caption "Texas League baseball pictures" in each package. It's possible, but I'm skeptical, that T206 Southern League cards will still being distributed at that late date. I'd always taken those ads to be referring to the T210 Series 3 cards. The ads aren't clear, however, because they use the same artwork as earlier campaigns, including the same picture of a package of cigarettes with the same T206-looking card poking out the top.

[tedzan]

I concur with your.....
""I have seen the ad series run through the fall of 1910 in a Texas newspaper with the caption "Texas League
baseball pictures" in each package. It's possible, but I'm skeptical, that T206 Southern League cards will still
being distributed at that late date. I'd always taken those ads to be referring to the T210 Series 3 cards.""

This adv. had to be referring to T210's.


However, I'd say that T206 Southern League cards were most likely still appearing in PIEDMONT packs during
1910. And, I say this from my experience in 2 original T206 collections that I acquired in the past 4 years.....

1st......404 assorted cards....mostly PIEDMONT 150 (some 350) with 26 So. Lgrs....all 26 SL were OLD MILL.

2nd......220 diff. cards....PIEDMONT 150 and 350 with 19 SL OLD MILL cards.


Both of these original collections were primarily put together during 1909. My point here is that the OLD MILL
SL cards were issued in late 1909 and early 1910 (prior to the T210's).


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks for your Leifield input......I'll add him to the list in the next upgrade.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Adding the new Leifield input brings the total to 300.

Thanks,


TED Z

[tedzan]

So far we have 300 confirmed T206 (non-So. Lgr.) OLD MILL cards. And, the question is....how many T206 subjects
could have been printed with the OLD MILL back ?

I calculate that a maximum of 450 - T206's could have been printed with the OLD MILL back. I arrived at this number
by deduction......

Omit Lundgren (Cubs)

Omit the "Big Six"......Wagner, Plank, O'Hara, Magie, Doyle, Demmitt

Omit the "Elite Eight"....Dahlen (Boston), Ewing, Ganley, Jones (St Lo), Karger, Lindaman, Mullin (horiz), Schulte (front)

Omit the 11 - "150-only"....Ames (pitch), M. Brown (Cubs), G. Brown (Chi), Burch (bat), Donlin (field), L. Doyle (throw),
Evers (blue sky), Pattee, Pelty (horiz), Powers), Reulbach (glove)

Omit the 48 Southern Leaguers


Therefore, it is as simple as this...... 524 - 48 - 11 - 8 - 6 - 1 = 450 ......possible OLD MILL cards.

However, we know that there will be "No-Prints" (NP)....and, to date our survey is indicating that there are 150 NP.

TED Z

[jimonym]

Ted and others,
Here's a scan of the type Old Mill ad I mentioned. From the Palestine, Texas, Daily Herald, 9/9/09:

http://www.jimonym.com/PalestineOldMill.jpg

And here's a Piedmont ad, same paper, three days earlier:

http://jimonym.com/PalestinePiedmont.jpg

[tedzan]

Here's the HINDU adv. from 1909 that 1st referred to the Southern Leaguer cards of which 2 were included in a HINDU pack.

It's only recently that we were able to ascertain that only 34 of the 48 Southern Lgrs. (SL) were printed with the HINDU back.

Subsequently, all 48 SL were printed with the OLD MILL backs. Then in 1910, all 48 SL were printed with the PIEDMONT backs.


Jamie......
Note that Breitenstein is pictured on both the HINDU and OLD MILL adv. But, his image in the HINDU adv. is reversed.



<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/atedbreitensteinhindu.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/advhindusouthlgers.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



TED Z

[tedzan]

I've been comparing the No-Print list of the SOVEREIGN issue (65 subjects all in the 350-only series) with the OLD MILL No-Prints.
And, I will soon post whatever comparisons exist.

Also, I find it interesting that 28 Major Leaguers that appear in the 1910 Coupon issue are No-Prints in the OLD MILL issue. I will
post this list soon, also.


TED Z

[tedzan]

The following 350 Series No-Print's are common to both OLD MILL and SOVEREIGN issues......


Abstein
Adkins
Arellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Minn)
Cross
Davidson
Frank Delehanty
Demmitt (NY)
Dessau
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Ganzel
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hunter
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (KC)
Maddox
Maloney
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Dots Miller
Mullen (port)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Ritter
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett


TED Z

[jimonym]

Ted,
If you cross-reference the 350-only Old Mill list with an EPDG list I think you'll find the correlations pretty interesting. I'll post some data tomorrow.

[tedzan]

I find it quite interesting that many of the subjects in the 1910 COUPON set are No-Print OLD MILL's.
There are 48 major leaguers in this COUPON set and these 29 happen to be OLD MILL no-prints.

I don't think this is just a coincidence, at the same time American Litho. was printing the OLD MILL's,
the 1st series of the COUPON cards was introduced.

1910 COUPON subjects that are OLD MILL no-prints.

Becker
Byrne
Charles
Donovan (throw)
Doolan (fielding)
Engle
Fletcher
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands/mouth)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
LaPorte
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
McBride
McElveen
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mowery
Paskert
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers
Willett



TED Z

[tedzan]

Looking forward to seeing your EPDG vs OLD MILL data. I haven't explored this factor.

TED Z

[jimonym]

Ted, I'm going to start a new thread, because the topic veers a bit from just Old Mills. Hopefully we can get a few more survey inputs in this thread.