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slidekellyslide
08-20-2009, 06:04 PM
A current poster on our board who is very good at advertising his services, but really adds nothing else to the overall conversation of the board related on the memorabilia side that he can improve cards and that the graders can't tell.

Here's an interview I found on the net: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/article/nerattowle/

So if someone can't tell if he's removed a crease, indentation, ink, glue, et cetera does it matter? Do you want to know if your PSA 8 has been "improved"?

Is this guy doing a service or a disservice to our hobby?

Leon
08-20-2009, 06:16 PM
A current poster on our board who is very good at advertising his services, but really adds nothing else to the overall conversation of the board related on the memorabilia side that he can improve cards and that the graders can't tell.

Here's an interview I found on the net: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/article/nerattowle/

So if someone can't tell if he's removed a crease, indentation, ink, glue, et cetera does it matter? Do you want to know if your PSA 8 has been "improved"?

Is this guy doing a service or a disservice to our hobby?

Hey Dan
I think we have to be more specific about what alterations/restorations/removals are being done. We have had this discussion only about a million times. Many of us don't mind taking something off of a card that wasn't originally meant to be there ie... pencil marks, glue (maybe), pen marks, paper scraps etc. Even soaking in water is more accepted than not, by many collectors. However, many of us also think that removing creases and other things isn't so good. My concern with the removal of creases is that it has been stated they can come back over time. I have never tried to remove a crease so I don't know. I think Dave Forman made a great post a few years ago about what he considered altering. It was sort of common sense but common sense isn't so common. :(

Sean_C
08-20-2009, 06:18 PM
Altering cards for the express purpose of trying to submit them for grading to sell for a higher price is fraud, pure and simple. Yes, I wish the grading companies were better at detecting it, but I blame the scum that do it more than I'll blame the TPG.

I don't have a problem with properly disclosed altered cards, akin to restoration work that is done in the comic book field. I don't know how many I would buy personally, but as long as the work done on the card is properly disclosed, then it's not a big deal.

A current poster on our board who is very good at advertising his services, but really adds nothing else to the overall conversation of the board related on the memorabilia side that he can improve cards and that the graders can't tell.

Here's an interview I found on the net: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/article/nerattowle/

So if someone can't tell if he's removed a crease, indentation, ink, glue, et cetera does it matter? Do you want to know if your PSA 8 has been "improved"?

Is this guy doing a service or a disservice to our hobby?

T206Collector
08-20-2009, 06:21 PM
...it will affect the Minty-mint collectors that are really concerned about population reports, but if that's not what you collect then it really shouldn't matter. This kind of thing would drive Jim Crandall mad. The high grade collectors are banking on a small universe of high grade cards. This technique expands that universe. It will likely have the effect of turning high grade collectors off to cards. But hopefully it will not affect the "arm pit" collectors one iota.

Given how many cards he has done, it is better at this point to accept it as a fact in our hobby and build into your collecting philosophy that it is happening.

Brian Van Horn
08-20-2009, 06:29 PM
Card Improvment: Ethical? Yes or NO?

NO.

slidekellyslide
08-20-2009, 06:31 PM
Hey Dan
I think we have to be more specific about what alterations/restorations/removals are being done. We have had this discussion only about a million times. Many of us don't mind taking something off of a card that wasn't originally meant to be there ie... pencil marks, glue (maybe), pen marks, paper scraps etc. Even soaking in water is more accepted than not, by many collectors. However, many of us also think that removing creases and other things isn't so good. My concern with the removal of creases is that it has been stated they can come back over time. I have never tried to remove a crease so I don't know. I think Dave Forman made a great post a few years ago about what he considered altering. It was sort of common sense but common sense isn't so common. :(

I know we've had the discussion a million times, but I hadn't realized we had an actual card doctor posting to the board until today. I'd also like to hear from the Net54ers he mentions in the interview about what kind of work he did for them and what they did with the cards after he worked on them. It is a bit alarming to me that Dick says he doesn't care what happens to the cards after they leave his hands.

Peter_Spaeth
08-20-2009, 06:35 PM
Removing creases for a dealer so he can sell it for a much higher price is aiding and abetting a fraud, plain and simple.

slidekellyslide
08-20-2009, 06:44 PM
Boy would I love to see Dick's client list.

barrysloate
08-20-2009, 06:45 PM
The standard answer for whether altering a card is ethical is always the same: if it is disclosed then there is nothing wrong with it. But we all know too well that if thousands of cards are to be treated with this formula, many of the procedures will not be disclosed. Perhaps even the majority won't.

Here is my read as it applies to the grading companies. There are two things that graders do that are an asset to the hobby:

1) They check a card for alterations, ostensibly making it safe for buyers to purchase it in a dangerous marketplace.
2) They grade cards, and I think we all agree that the value of any baseball card is predicated on the grade it receives, hopefully an accurate one.

If this new product is as successful as Dick says, here is what will happen:

1) The grading companies will no longer be able to tell with any accuracy whether or not a card has been tampered with since the alterations will be undetectable.
2) They will no longer be able to grade cards accurately since ones in Good and Very Good holders will be broken out, processed, and reappear as Excellent or EX-MT.

The result is that the assessment of any card will be less reliable than ever. Can anybody see this being a good thing (unless you are one who hopes for the demise of third party grading)?

Peter_Spaeth
08-20-2009, 06:47 PM
Boy would I love to see Dick's client list.


No such luck, my friend. This is the hobby with no transparency. We don't know who card doctors work for. We don't know who submits the graded cards we buy. We don't know who consigns to auction houses the lots we bid on. We don't know which reported sales are real and which are bs.

Peter_Spaeth
08-20-2009, 06:49 PM
In my opinion Barry we are already there -- it's anybody's guess whether a graded card has been altered in some way, and the more it's worth, the more likely the answer is yes.

slidekellyslide
08-20-2009, 06:49 PM
No such luck, my friend. This is the hobby with no transparency. We don't know who card doctors work for. We don't know who submits the graded cards we buy. We don't know who consigns to auction houses the lots we bid on. We don't know which reported sales are real and which are bs.

Brings up an interesting question that I've asked before (without an answer of course)....why did the owner of GAI submit his Mantle card to SGC hoping to have the indentation removed?

Peter_Spaeth
08-20-2009, 06:52 PM
Brings up an interesting question that I've asked before (without an answer of course)....why did the owner of GAI submit his Mantle card to SGC hoping to have the indentation removed?

As we say in the law sometimes, the thing speaks for itself.

barrysloate
08-20-2009, 06:59 PM
There are several reasons why cards get a low grade. Some have heavily rounded corners and layering. Those probably can't be improved and will remain as low grade cards.

Others have the appearance of Excellent or better, but they get hammered because of a light crease. Those will disappear from the marketplace. In time, every one of them will be processed to receive a higher grade.

I know this has already been done for a long time but a product like this, if aggressively marketed, will speed up the process of card alteration.

Jim VB
08-20-2009, 07:04 PM
No such luck, my friend. This is the hobby with no transparency. We don't know who card doctors work for. We don't know who submits the graded cards we buy. We don't know who consigns to auction houses the lots we bid on. We don't know which reported sales are real and which are bs.



But, we do, often, know who the really great guys are!

V117collector
08-20-2009, 07:09 PM
The easiest way to finding out if using a “card doctor” is ethical or not is to ask board members if they’ve ever paid for an “alteration”. If there's no real replies to this simply question, we have an answer, not ethical (if not disclosing).


Obviously there are degrees when discussing alterations and/or repairs. The question should be which procedure/s would be consider by most collectors an ethical improvement?


eg: soaking cards for paper removal (distilled water)

botn
08-20-2009, 07:46 PM
I think Dave Forman made a great post a few years ago about what he considered altering. It was sort of common sense but common sense isn't so common. :(

Too easy so I will let this one go.

Reginald Marsh
08-20-2009, 08:29 PM
Actually Bretta you and Spaeth kinda remind me of that goofball O'Keefe at the Net54 dinner, rambling on and on about something that is old news.

Does any true card collector or dealer think that Dick is the only one who can do things to cards? I mean please we are talking about cardboard and paper here. Just like there are many folks that can restore a painting or old document there ar emany people who can restore cards.

My question is why start off a topic on the main board that is only going to create drama? Ohhhhhh..... that's right i forgot that was the intent....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzzzzzz... ..

barrysloate
08-20-2009, 08:46 PM
Reginald- this discussion is a little different. Yes, there have always been card doctors around, but they have operated a bit under the radar. Dick's product is bringing card doctoring into the mainstream. Now every collector can buy a bottle and remove creases from their own cards. It legitimizes the process a little too much for my taste.

slidekellyslide
08-20-2009, 09:07 PM
Actually Bretta you and Spaeth kinda remind me of that goofball O'Keefe at the Net54 dinner, rambling on and on about something that is old news.

Does any true card collector or dealer think that Dick is the only one who can do things to cards? I mean please we are talking about cardboard and paper here. Just like there are many folks that can restore a painting or old document there ar emany people who can restore cards.

My question is why start off a topic on the main board that is only going to create drama? Ohhhhhh..... that's right i forgot that was the intent....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzzzzzz... ..

Great, you don't like the subject? Don't read it....and I certainly hope you weren't as rude at the Net54 dinner as you are in this forum.

benjulmag
08-20-2009, 09:30 PM
Regretably if we're not there yet, we will be soon when many alterations will as a practical matter be undetectable. In such a world a slabbed 8 will be as likely to be an altered, say, 3 as a genuine 8. When the market recognizes this as being the state of affairs, IMO prices of high grade condition rarities that lack solid provenance (e.g., coming from an old-time collection such that the likelihood of alteration is negligible) will plummet.

T206Collector
08-20-2009, 09:33 PM
When you purchase a high grade pre-war card, part of your expectation should be that that card may have been "improved" at some point in its 100 year life. If you are purchasing these with an expectation that they have only stayed the same or gotten worse over the years, then you are just being unrealistic.

Whether it is ethical is sort of besides the point. It is unethical to do illegal downloads, but MP3 technology and "free music" changed the game. People will always collect baseball cards, but the expectation of the history of their cards may change. And that may have a dramatic effect on the market.

As I have said on here a zillion times -- if you are buying PSA 8 T206 cards, then you have a really good chance of owning an improved-upon card. If you care about that then you're spending your money in the wrong place.

Peter_Spaeth
08-20-2009, 09:42 PM
cards may change. And that may have a dramatic effect on the market.

As I have said on here a zillion times -- if you are buying PSA 8 T206 cards, then you have a really good chance of owning an improved-upon card. If you care about that then you're spending your money in the wrong place.

I agree, but I am not sure that excuses the grading companies for misrepresenting that the cards are original, or the card doctors/dealers for perpretrating fraud.

Peter_Spaeth
08-20-2009, 09:44 PM
Regretably if we're not there yet, we will be soon when many alterations will as a practical matter be undetectable. In such a world a slabbed 8 will be as likely to be an altered, say, 3 as a genuine 8. When the market recognizes this as being the state of affairs, IMO prices of high grade condition rarities that lack solid provenance (e.g., coming from an old-time collection such that the likelihood of alteration is negligible) will plummet.

Not sure we will get there. I think the majority of people are trusting and take the grades at face value.

T206Collector
08-20-2009, 09:51 PM
I agree, but I am not sure that excuses the grading companies for misrepresenting that the cards are original, or the card doctors/dealers for perpretrating fraud.

You're holding the grading companies to a standard that is impossible to keep or police. I excuse the grading companies from detecting the undetectable.

As far as going after card doctors/dealers who perpetuate fraud -- be my guest. Line them up and shoot them. But don't think that addresses or solves your problem. The damage is already done -- the fraud already committed. There is reasonable doubt in every pre-war card. We ought to be coming to terms with these facts.

PSA 10s aren't as rare as we thought they were, but they're still relatively rare. There's only so much you can doctor a card. We just need to be building certain expectations into our card collections.

Threads like this show that there are still a lot of surprised and disappointed people in our hobby. As long as that's true then card values will be artificially inflated by these unreasonable expectations.

We need to move as a collective to reasonable expectations. And we've had these changes in our hobby before. The advent of grading changed the definition of mint. Is this really any different?

Peter_Spaeth
08-20-2009, 10:10 PM
The long hoped-for bullet was entering his brain ... He had won the victory over himself. He loved the Great Guys.

slidekellyslide
08-20-2009, 10:17 PM
Threads like this show that there are still a lot of surprised and disappointed people in our hobby. As long as that's true then card values will be artificially inflated by these unreasonable expectations.



I don't think that really true...as long as there is a competition going on in registry sets I don't think those guys care. Jim Crandell is quite aware of what is going on with this aspect of the hobby, but it hasn't stopped him from paying a premium for Mint grades....I am also quite certain that the "whales" that participate in the registry are also aware that cards are being improved.

Reginald Marsh
08-20-2009, 10:47 PM
Barry......i do not see where anyone is advertising where you can buy a bottle of anything. I'm pretty sure that nothing is for sale in regards to a bottle of anything.

Bretta.....there is nothing rude about asking you why as a moderator do you start asking questions that will only create drama and controversy. Also note that Dick has been doing this for 16 years so it is no new discovery in regards to cards and there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

slidekellyslide
08-20-2009, 11:08 PM
Barry......i do not see where anyone is advertising where you can buy a bottle of anything. I'm pretty sure that nothing is for sale in regards to a bottle of anything.

Bretta.....there is nothing rude about asking you why as a moderator do you start asking questions that will only create drama and controversy. Also note that Dick has been doing this for 16 years so it is no new discovery in regards to cards and there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

1) referring to me by my last name and comparing me to a "goofball" I consider to be rude. This is not the first instance where I've found you to be rude.

2) for one who abhors the "Drama" I've noticed you always make sure you get a shot in in any thread that is "Dramatic".

3) just because I am a moderator does not mean I can not bring up controversial subjects.

Carry on.

FrankWakefield
08-20-2009, 11:08 PM
I see nothing wrong with soaking a T206 to get paste and scrapbook off of the card.

And when I read this thread it makes me think there are folks out there who think their slabbed cards have never been soaked... And are afraid that folks might start soaking cards then sending them in for grading.

I'm glad I collect cards, and not slabs.

Reginald Marsh
08-20-2009, 11:39 PM
Bretta i agree that you should have the right to bring up controversial subjects but if you are please bring up something new. Cards have been restored for the past 30 years and also note there is a huge difference in removing something from a card and adding something.

When a piece of artwork has dirt removed it is entirely different than when someone repairs the canvas or touches up paint loss.

I was only kidding when saying goofball but i forgot the sensitive level is ultra high here on this board. The only point i was trying to make is let's talk about something new instead of the same blah.....blah....blah....

Everyday it is either Mastro,legendary,Doug Forman.......and then Mastro,Legendary,card restoring......Doug forman.....and then....so you get my point.

Cat
08-20-2009, 11:43 PM
Doug Forman

Gave me a chuckle.

onlychild
08-20-2009, 11:51 PM
there is actually a section on this website explaining how to soak a card yet that is not brought up or questioned and neither are the people who wrote it.

As Leon said, those type of questions have been brought up a million times.

I wrote that section some time ago and trust me, the questioning has been relentless...it's par for the course. There are plenty of mixed feelings about soaking and opinions differ.

Where the line is drawn in the sand for alterations is up to each individual collector. As an example, my opinion is that if a cleaning or any other type of alteration can be detected...it's been doctored. Others would argue that point.

Kevin

slidekellyslide
08-21-2009, 12:22 AM
Bretta i agree that you should have the right to bring up controversial subjects but if you are please bring up something new. Cards have been restored for the past 30 years and also note there is a huge difference in removing something from a card and adding something.

When a piece of artwork has dirt removed it is entirely different than when someone repairs the canvas or touches up paint loss.

I was only kidding when saying goofball but i forgot the sensitive level is ultra high here on this board. The only point i was trying to make is let's talk about something new instead of the same blah.....blah....blah....

Everyday it is either Mastro,legendary,Doug Forman.......and then Mastro,Legendary,card restoring......Doug forman.....and then....so you get my point.

The only reason I brought it up today was that I hadn't realized that a card doctor was posting to the board rather regularly....almost solely for the purpose of advertising his service. Others may not have been aware of what Mr Towle does. Also Barry made an interesting point in the other thread...if you can't tell, does it matter?

This board reflects what is going on in the hobby...there really is no bigger news than what is happening with Mastro/Legendary/Doug Foreman and you're going to see a lot of posts on those subjects. If you don't like it you are free to start another thread.

Reginald Marsh
08-21-2009, 01:21 AM
Ummmm Doug Forman or Bill Meistro is old news. I'm trying to find the common sense when a company is being investigated by the feds as to why people bid or consign with that auction house.

Can you imagine if Madoff just changed his company name and folks still relied on his firm to manage their life savings?

Maybe it is just me but i do not feel sorry for any consignors or bidders in regards to Legendary because everyone should have known better once the news broke about the investigation some time ago.

Beating a dead horse gets old and the truth of all of this is simple- Once a card is in a holder it is the end of the line. All the drama around the Honus Wagner and the fact it is not legit is hilarious. If the feds were getting anywhere with their findings then they should have the card cracked out and viewed by two different experts and then whoooaaaaa the game would get real interesting. People with high end cards could care less about message boards or altering just like coins when the coin goes in a PCGS MS-66 holder then the fun starts.

E93
08-21-2009, 01:51 AM
...it will affect the Minty-mint collectors that are really concerned about population reports, but if that's not what you collect then it really shouldn't matter.

I disagree. I think there are just as many cards that have gone from vg to ex as there are cards that have gone from ex/mt to nm/mt. It just comes down to if it is worth the time for the $$$. If a doctor could change a $2000 vg Cobb into a $6000 ex or ex/mt Cobb, they will do it. It is not the specific condition label. It is the cash value of the change.
JimB
P.S. Without rebuilding corners, etc., which would be a much more involved and detectable change in general, it is not easy to find vintage cards that are even in shooting range of becoming nm/mt. It is much easier to rub out a wrinkle or minor crease and make a card ex.

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 06:45 AM
Jim B- good point. It's really about how much money can be made, period. I agree.

But if the grading companies can't really assure collectors that cards haven't been tampered with, and if yesterday's VG card is today's EX-MT card, and nobody cares, then I have a question: why do we need the grading companies at all?

Let's go back to storing cards in screwdown lucite holders and forget about submitting them at all. Why bother? According to many who have posted here, we can never be sure of the grade, or the authenticity, anyhow. So why should I care what the label reads?

T206Collector
08-21-2009, 08:25 AM
I should've said EX to Minty. Either way, I think the stress level of people who care about these things is higher the higher the grade you collect.

Bamacollection
08-21-2009, 08:42 AM
Barry,
The only 2 reasons we need to be concerned with regarding slabs is the premium we will charged for a card and the value it will retain if we wish to sell the card down the line. Let's say you are looking at a T206 in a PSA 6 holder, how many dealers would accept you looking at a card, spot an error, wrinkle, crease, etc... and agree the slab was wrong and take less for the card? Maybe you can talk them down a couple of dollars, but probably not a couple of grades. Grades on a slab are no more than a price tag and a guarantee of future value. I wish I had been involved in the hobby when slabs didn't exist.

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 09:04 AM
Lance- in your example, if the public loses confidence in what a PSA 6 really is, the card is going to take a big hit anyway.

Collectors pay enormous premiums for high grade cards and they want to get what they pay for. Sure, some cards in 7 holders may really only be 6's or 6.5's, but the market can tolerate that. All collectors know there is some subjectivity to grading.

But if you were led to believe that the 7 you just purchased was originally in a 3 holder, that just wouldn't cut it. The market won't tolerate that. Nobody will pay $500 for what was previously a $35 card.

WhenItWasAHobby
08-21-2009, 09:08 AM
I know this is not pre-War card related, but I think this thread is very worth your time to read:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115212

Your feedback is appreciated.

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 09:30 AM
Thanks for that link. It appears that a good paper restorer can get his work past graders pretty easily. For those collectors who concentrate mostly on very high end cards, and pay large premiums to get them, how do you feel about this?

Bamacollection
08-21-2009, 10:02 AM
Barry- I see your point. I also believe that alot of the high end collectors, especially regisrtry guys, could care less how the card became said grade. I think it's more about competition with them. Kind of like killing a monster white tail in a petting zoo...you can leave the zoo part out of the hunting story and still show your buddies the deer. The cards have become little holdered trophies for the cardboard safari hunters. Just look at the "Holy Grail"...

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 10:32 AM
I'm not sure the registry people would be all that happy if they believed that what they were buying was altered. That has nothing to do with competition. Nobody likes to feel they are being ripped off.

FrankWakefield
08-21-2009, 10:48 AM
Well now they'd not exactly be ripped off, the card slab still has the grade on there that the registry collector was concerned about.

Bamacollection
08-21-2009, 11:07 AM
Well now they'd not exactly be ripped off, the card slab still has the grade on there that the registry collector was concerned about.

Exactly! Unless they crack the card out, it still retains the grade and value. The slabs have become a bomb shelter for alot of cards. How many times have you re-submitted a rejected card and had it slabbed either by the same company or a different service? Do you disclose that the card had been rejected prior to being slabbed or do you think "I knew I wasa right" and sell without disclosure?

DICKTOWLE
08-21-2009, 11:09 AM
Reginald- this discussion is a little different. Yes, there have always been card doctors around, but they have operated a bit under the radar. Dick's product is bringing card doctoring into the mainstream. Now every collector can buy a bottle and remove creases from their own cards. It legitimizes the process a little too much for my taste.

Please stop the madness, I sell nothing, never had, never will-I simple remove garbage on cards-- glue, paper, wrinkles- a crease will remain while the paper is broken- tape, contact cement-- that is all.. Please--THERE IS NO BOTTLE---STOP THE MADNESS: I DON'T DO INK PERIOD . I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 15 YEARS WITH MOSTLY PEOPLE LOOKING TO HAVE CRAP REMOVED-

Leon
08-21-2009, 11:10 AM
Well now they'd not exactly be ripped off, the card slab still has the grade on there that the registry collector was concerned about.

I have to agree with Frank on this one. Since the difference between an 8 and an 8.5 or 9 is so minimal I too think it's more about the number on the slab than the card in the holder, for the registry collectors (maybe I am wrong but this is how I see it). Hopefully they would even agree. After all, the cards in those grades are almost exactly the same. Any layperson could barely, if at all, tell the difference. Heck, I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable but can barely tell an 8.5 from a 9.....regards

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 11:16 AM
Dick- correct me if I am wrong, but on the memorabilia side of the board didn't you discuss you have a product that removes ink from baseballs, as well as one that removes creases from cards?

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 11:17 AM
Dick, what's the biggest grade bump you have attained for someone, at least as far as you know?

botn
08-21-2009, 12:09 PM
Dan,

Very impressive investigation! Also quite amazed by the quality of the work performed on those cards. Scary time to be a collector if what you truly seek is original and authentic material.

Greg

DICKTOWLE
08-21-2009, 12:24 PM
Dick- correct me if I am wrong, but on the memorabilia side of the board didn't you discuss you have a product that removes ink from baseballs, as well as one that removes creases from cards?

Barry, I can remove ink from baseballs- but I won't, this is my process, all that was ever intended was to remove a bad autograph- however as I said there is to "evil" out there, so why ??. I would be better to leave this alone, as far as my solvents for wrinkles, I have my chemistry from 16 years, nothing is sold, again if there is a crease with paper broken, the crease remains always. I never sold anything and never will. . My solvents are used for glue,tape,contact cement, indents, cards that are warped. NO CREASES thank you again Sir

Rob D.
08-21-2009, 12:29 PM
I'm just glad I don't seek to acquire the "finest examples extant" of a card.

The sea of mediocrity in which I swim feels a bit more warm and soothing today.

That said, I still trust no one.

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 12:33 PM
I DON'T DO INK PERIOD . -

HUH?
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.

DICKTOWLE
08-21-2009, 12:35 PM
Dick, what's the biggest grade bump you have attained for someone, at least as far as you know?

Peter, I really don't know, but if you have a T205 that a "dealer painted all the corners to cheat a customer the card would be "A". If the card were to grade with the integrety in place above a "A" with now chipping on the corners that is truly a blessing for a customer because that would be the real grade. Most of my customers are collectors just tring to remove junk. Thank you Peter

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 12:44 PM
Nice example Dick but perhaps you should have offered this one instead.

I just completed a Mickey Mantle rookie for another prominent dealer down in Florida. It had terrible stains on the back and we got the stains off. He said the card would probably get a “lock 8.” But it wouldn’t get it with the stains on it. He’s as happy as a bullfrog.

DICKTOWLE
08-21-2009, 12:44 PM
HUH?
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card..

Peter, thank you for the chance to respond just because I have a process, it does not mean I use this. I removed the fountian pen ink, however I decided I don't want to do ink, and I never did. The test was on this ink- it passed- The two cards that were done were test card- zero value- however again, my choice was not to do and I don't. thank you again

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 12:46 PM
Dick- thanks for the response. Sorry if I misquoted you.

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 12:46 PM
So between October 7 2008 and today you changed your mind, eh?

DICKTOWLE
08-21-2009, 12:49 PM
Nice example Dick but perhaps you should have offered this one instead.

I just completed a Mickey Mantle rookie for another prominent dealer down in Florida. It had terrible stains on the back and we got the stains off. He said the card would probably get a “lock 8.” But it wouldn’t get it with the stains on it. He’s as happy as a bullfrog.

Peter, you are correct, however we never received back a answer, it was a 5 as I try to remember, removing the stains, still maybe a 5??, Also we found out later the gentleman had passed away in November . thank you sir

DICKTOWLE
08-21-2009, 12:56 PM
So between October 7 2008 and today you changed your mind, eh?

Peter, no matter what I say it is never correct with you. I am sure you are a highly respected person in the industry, but you may want to twist words. God allows people to change there minds, like I said without my hand on a bible, I did not pursue this even after the commons came back graded, not today but Oct of 2008. Thank you again.

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 01:00 PM
Not twisting anything Dick just asking how you reconcile your statement here that you don't do ink period with your interview where you were touting the results of your ink removal.

Rob D.
08-21-2009, 01:03 PM
"Stop the fight!"

T206Collector
08-21-2009, 01:12 PM
Dick,

I hope you will continue to post regarding your process and practice. Given some collectors' concerns about what you do, you are likely to be met with some measure of venom on public internet chatboards. I hope that this does not cause you to stop the dialogue. It is important for us as a hobby to understand the full extent of what is really going on out there.

Thanks again for your posts.

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 01:15 PM
Dan,

Very impressive investigation! Also quite amazed by the quality of the work performed on those cards. Scary time to be a collector if what you truly seek is original and authentic material.

Greg

Aw shucks what's a little trimming and corner work among friends?

botn
08-21-2009, 01:23 PM
According to VCP, the seller on the graded cards in Dan's investigative report is ebay id scottsusor.

DICKTOWLE
08-21-2009, 01:28 PM
Dick,

I hope you will continue to post regarding your process and practice. Given some collectors' concerns about what you do, you are likely to be met with some measure of venom on public internet chatboards. I hope that this does not cause you to stop the dialogue. It is important for us as a hobby to understand the full extent of what is really going on out there.

Thanks again for your posts.

T 206 Thank you for the kind words, I have already received many emails and even a phone call at my home in support what I do. PAPER WRINKLES, GLUED IN CARDS, GLUE ON CARDS, WAX AND GUM STAINS, INDENTS, TAPE, JUST GARBAGE ON A CARD. THANK YOU ALL FOR THE GREAT SUPPORT.

Rickyy
08-21-2009, 01:42 PM
If the improvements are made to a card without disclosure and submitted for grading and gets a higher grade than it should be in its original state (and without a qualifer), it makes all the legitimate non altered graded cards the same as altered non detected graded cards..so how does that make it ethical?


Ricky Yo

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 01:49 PM
Dick- I say this with all due respect, but "paper wrinkle" is another term for "crease."

bijoem
08-21-2009, 01:57 PM
I hate to single out this thread, because I think of this exchange with a bunch of other threads, but here goes......


Jerry Seinfeld: "What are we doing? ... What in God's name are we doing?"

Jason Alexander as George: "What."

Seinfeld: "What kind of lives are these? We're like children. We're not men."

Alexander: "No, we're not. We're not men."

Seinfeld: "We're pathetic, ya know that?"

Alexander: "Yeah, like I don't know that I'm pathetic."

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 02:07 PM
Joe- you know you could have posted the same Seinfeld bit on the "America's Toughest Want List is Smoking Hot" thread and gotten a lot more mileage with it.;)

bijoem
08-21-2009, 02:21 PM
Joe- you know you could have posted the same Seinfeld bit on the "America's Toughest Want List is Smoking Hot" thread and gotten a lot more mileage with it.;)

I agree. There were so many times it could have been posted. And there are/were threads far more worthy of the bit.

Maybe it is a build up, or just the stifling heat, but this is when I was moved enough to post it.

smokelessjoe
08-21-2009, 02:22 PM
I think what both Dan & Peter are trying to say is that if my son takes one on my T206s and scribbles on it, that is unethical (because it has been altered). Then if I take the T206 and send it off to Towle and he removes the scribble, now two unethical alterations have been committed on one card! This would be a horrific and spine chilling scenario, and would really put a damper on our hobby...

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 02:30 PM
Joe- it is stifling. I'm sitting here without air conditioning.:(

T206Collector
08-21-2009, 02:38 PM
Joe- it is stifling. I'm sitting here without air conditioning.:(

I can't breathe when I leave my house or office. How do you tolerate being indoors without air conditioning right now? Seriously. It is unhealthy.

Rob D.
08-21-2009, 02:41 PM
Wasn't it determined that having air conditioning is every American's right?

I'm sure Lichtman is paying for someone's AC somewhere.

Matt
08-21-2009, 02:47 PM
Wasn't it determined that having air conditioning is every American's right?

I'm sure Lichtman is paying for someone's AC somewhere.

You think there aren't studies that prove that people who have air conditioning live longer then peope who don't?

slidekellyslide
08-21-2009, 02:50 PM
Joe- it is stifling. I'm sitting here without air conditioning.:(

It's been a strange Summer here in Nebraska...we got down in the 50s last night...I don't think it's hit 70 yet today....and we just came of the third coolest July on record. I'm going to have to wear a jacket to tonight's baseball game and I don't think I've ever done that in August.

HRBAKER
08-21-2009, 03:10 PM
I can't breathe when I leave my house or office. How do you tolerate being indoors without air conditioning right now? Seriously. It is unhealthy.

Absolutely a right! What we need is a Cash for Condensors program!

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 03:27 PM
I have A/C in the living room but never turn it on...people who know me know my eccentric behavior.

Rob D.
08-21-2009, 04:22 PM
When we were having trouble with our air conditioning a few weeks ago, instead of having it worked on, I met with a panel of government officials who counseled me about whether I even wanted to have it fixed. They made interesting points about whether it was worth continuing to have AC in our lives.

In the end, I decided the time had come to let it go. So now I'm sitting in front of a fan, sweating.

Leon
08-21-2009, 04:27 PM
I have A/C in the living room but never turn it on...people who know me know my eccentric behavior.

People that know you know you are cheap, cheap, cheap. (Not that there's anything wrong with that) So am I. BTW, I would beg to differ on the definition of a crease. Many in the hobby, myself included, think a crease goes through to both sides whereas as a wrinkle is only on one side. It's semantics but I have seen this definition more than once and adhere to it myself. regards

Oldtix
08-21-2009, 04:34 PM
A grateful nation expresses thanks for your sacrifice. We who enjoy the cooling breeze salute you.

I expect to see Soylent Green on the menu by Christmas.

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Leon- I actually don't like A/C. I can't sleep with the windows closed and the noise it makes, I feel claustrophobic...and yes, the electric bill is higher too.

Edited to say there are light creases and heavy creases. Light ones are on the surface, heavy ones go through the paper. But when I wrote auction copy you can be sure I called a light crease a wrinkle.

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 06:39 PM
Dick confesses to altering cards, Dan Markel makes a shocking post proving trimmed cards are being slabbed, and no one cares so we are joking about the weather? Oh well.

barrysloate
08-21-2009, 06:45 PM
Peter- in all fairness we had 85 posts; maybe 8 are about the weather (which by the way has cooled off nicely in NYC in the last couple of hours).

Peter_Spaeth
08-21-2009, 06:57 PM
Dan Markel's post, in my opinion, is extremely significant, and he put a great deal of effort into it, yet there is no reaction at all. We are not talking about stain removal or even wrinkles now-- we are talking about slabbing TRIMMED cards.

botn
08-21-2009, 06:58 PM
Peter- in all fairness we had 85 posts; maybe 8 are about the weather (which by the way has cooled off nicely in NYC in the last couple of hours).

Dan's post came in the AM and there have not been 85 posts since that time. However 85 would be a horrid turnout considering his revelation. Not that we did not know this was happening but to put forth definitive proof like this is impressive. Guess the weather in NYC is not the only thing that has cooled off.

Not Barry's fault for the OT posts on this thread. It is why this stuff will continue to happen and collectors will continue to add garbage to their collections, raw and graded. If those who collect lower grade material think this is not happening thus justifying their decisions to ignore what Dan has presented, guess again.

May not have happened on your T206 commons in 2 and 3 holders but maybe that T206 Cobb or Mathewson in similar grades have had some additional attention before you bought it. If that does not bother you, carry on.

calvindog
08-21-2009, 07:25 PM
Dan M, great stuff. You made me a bit nauseous, though. I feel fairly convinced that most of my high grade cards have been played with.

slidekellyslide
08-21-2009, 11:38 PM
Jim Crandell is starting to look like Nostradamus. Great work Dan M.