Reprising the recent Red Cobb survey....with new info

[tedzan]

I am reprising this survey for those new members who have not seen it; and, for all who might still be inte-
rested in this most popular white-bordered Tobacco card.

At last count, we had 301 samples of the T206 red Cobb. And 8 other white-bordered red Cobb's. The final
tally is listed below.

The new info garnered from this (and other) surveys is that American Litho. did NOT print this Cobb with a
UZIT back. In fact, none of the 6 super-prints in the T206 set are found with the UZIT back or the Ameri-
can Beauty 460 back. However, these six subjects can be found with virtually every other White-Bordered
Tobacco back that was issued from 1909 - 1919.


__________________________________________________ _________________________

Incidently, these two T206 backs have yet to be confirmed for the Red Cobb. Several of the super-prints
have been confirmed with these 2 backs; therefore, it is possible that the Red Cobb was printed with them.
Does anyone here have a Red Cobb with either of these backs ?

BROAD LEAF 350

Red HINDU.

__________________________________________________ _________________________



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbsov460.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Red Cobb....UPDATED survey....8/17/09

..1....TY COBB back
..1....1910 COUPON (Type 1)
..2....T213-2
..3....T213-3
..1....T214
..0....T215


T206 red Cobb....UPDATED survey....8/17/09

Scarcest group......

..0....BROAD LEAF 350
..1....BROAD LEAF 460
..7....CAROLINA BRIGHTS
..7....CYCLE 460
..2....DRUM
..3....EPDG
..0....HINDU (red)
..5....LENOX (black)
13....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
..4....SOVEREIGN 460
..0....UZIT


Next toughest group......

10....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
..1....CYCLE 350
..9....SOVEREIGN 350
..6....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
..8....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
..2....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
..3....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
10....TOLSTOI


The easier ones......

22....OLD MILL
27....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
17....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30


The most available ones......

62....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
51....PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
31....POLAR BEAR


Since it is very doubtful that we will see a real UZIT red Cobb....this scan of my "exotic" UZIT red Cobb will
have to suffice.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbuzitms.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


After all....this card is not that far-fetched....Cobb is quoted as saying...."Baseball was like War"....:)


Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this survey. And, special thanks goes out to Art Martineau,
Scot Reader and Brian Weisner for their expertise on this subject.



T-Rex TED

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you, Ted.

Someone is going to ask about how that Piedmont 460 fac 42 can be in the "scarcest" group. Seems to me that some collectors sought that particular back out, and our sample population includes those cards. So I'm accepting of that "scarcest" designation.

Great job!!

FW

[tedzan]

Yes, several already have question that sample.....most feel that 13 red Cobb's with this "rare" back
does not jive.

Well, I have responded by telling them to consider these factors......

1....The red Cobb was Double-Printed in most cases and we are talking about a Piedmont back (which
was the American Tobacco Company's premier T-brand in the early 20th Century).

2....Furthermore, the Red Cobb was printed in the 350/460 series.....our surveys have shown that
the P460/42 back is more available on the cards in this series..

3....Finally, most of the Net54 collector population is a very sophisticated bunch of collectors that
seek out these rare T206 backs; therefore, I am not surprised by the greater than expected sample
of P460/42 inputs.


When I first saw the numbers being reported on the P460/42 backs, it did somewhat surprise me.
So, I very diligently followed up each of these reports to insure that each one was a unique input.

There was an interesting pattern to the incoming data of the P460/42 Cobb's. On the first day
there were 6 inputs. By the end of the first week there were a total of 10 inputs.
After 2 weeks there was a total of 12 inputs. Then it took 3 1/2 months to get the 13th (and final)
P460/42 input. So, the rate of inputs followed an exponential curve.

Frank....thanks for asking this question....I hope it helps to explain this paradox.

TED Z

[slantycouch]

Great post and very neat stuff Ted. Thanks for all the work you put into this.

[tedzan]

It has been a month since the last posting and since then 23 more inputs (including 2 more Piedmont 460/42
Cobb's). have been recorded. So, I'm reprising this survey for those new members who haven't seen it; and,
for all who might still be interested in this most popular white-bordered Tobacco card.

The latest count brings the total to 332 white-bordered Red Cobb's....of which 324 are T206's. The final tally
is listed below.

The new info garnered from this (and other) surveys is that American Litho. did NOT print this Cobb with a
UZIT back. In fact, none of the 6 super-prints in the T206 set are found with the UZIT back or the Ameri-
can Beauty 460 back. However, these six subjects can be found with virtually every other White-Bordered
Tobacco back that was issued from 1909 - 1919.


__________________________________________________ _________________________

Incidently, these two T206 backs have yet to be confirmed for the Red Cobb. Several of the super-prints
have been confirmed with these 2 backs; therefore, it is possible that the Red Cobb was printed with them.
Does anyone here have a Red Cobb with either of these backs ?


BROAD LEAF 350

Red HINDU.

__________________________________________________ _________________________



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbsov460.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Red Cobb....UPDATED survey....9/17/09

..1....TY COBB back
..1....1910 COUPON (Type 1)
..2....T213-2
..3....T213-3
..1....T214
..0....T215


T206 red Cobb....UPDATED survey....9/17/09

Scarcest group......

..0....BROAD LEAF 350
..1....BROAD LEAF 460
..7....CAROLINA BRIGHTS
..7....CYCLE 460
..2....DRUM
..3....EPDG
..0....HINDU (red)
..5....LENOX (black)
15....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
..4....SOVEREIGN 460
..0....UZIT


Next toughest group......

10....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
..1....CYCLE 350
..9....SOVEREIGN 350
..6....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
..8....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
..2....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
..3....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
11....TOLSTOI


The easier ones......

22....OLD MILL
29....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
19....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30


The most available ones......

67....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
56....PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
37....POLAR BEAR


Since it is very doubtful that we will see a real UZIT red Cobb....this scan of my "exotic" UZIT red Cobb will
have to suffice.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbuzitms.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


After all....this card is not that far-fetched....Cobb is quoted as saying...."Baseball was like War"....:)


Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this survey.



TED Z

[HexsHeroes]

.
.
. . . but would this merit consideration (even though I do not own it) ?


http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/169.html

[tedzan]

Thanks for your input. I'm very aware of this particular card. I have not recorded it, since there
are some questions regarding it.

There is a consensus that the Red Cobb has never been seen with a Red HINDU back. However,
that does not mean that it doesn't exist. Where there is one, there's got to be more. I will wait
for a 2nd one to surface before I include it in this survey.

Regards,

TED Z

[uffda51]

http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51/frontsbacks/websize/T213%20Cobb%20.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51/frontsbacks/websize/T213%20Cobb%20rev.jpg

Hi, Ted. Didn't think to mention this card until this post prompted me. A pretty nice VG card, due to a barely perceptible surface wrinkle.

[terjung]

Thanks for your input. I'm very aware of this particular card. I have not recorded it, since there
are some questions regarding it.

There is a consensus that the Red Cobb has never been seen with a Red HINDU back. However,
that does not mean that it doesn't exist. Where there is one, there's got to be more. I will wait
for a 2nd one to surface before I include it in this survey.

Regards,

TED Z

What are the questions with that particular card (aside from apparently it not having surfaced before)? Is it an issue of provenance or is tampering suspected?

[tedzan]

BRUCE

That sure is a nice Type 2 Coupon. Thanks for posting it.

It will be added to the list on the next update.

Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

BRIAN T

There are no unique front/back combos in the T206 world. Where there is one, there has got to be another.

Yes, some T206 veteran collectors question this card. This is understandable, in light of several T206's that
have been re-backed, or otherwise tampered with, to increase their value. Furthermore, many of these fakes
have been graded....some even twice graded.

Here are 4 recent examples just for starters......

1....A T206 Matty portrait with Red HINDU back (an impossible front/back combo) was first graded as a PSA7.
When questioned, the owner submitted this card to SGC and it was graded SGC50. Eventually, it was proven
to be a fake.

2....A T206 Cobb (bat off) with a Piedmont 150 back (an impossible front/back combo). Graded by PSA.

3....A T206 Joe Doyle error card with a faked "Nat'l", and a Polar Bear back (an impossible front/back combo)
was graded by PSA. Apparently, the grader was unaware that this card exists only with a Piedmont 350 back,

4....A T206 Joe Doyle error card with a faked "Nat'l" caption was graded by one of the top grading company's.


As I said, let's wait and see if another Red Cobb with a red HINDU back shows up.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

gorgeous card,Bruce!
and Ted, you are wise to proceed with caution in this crazy world of re-backings!

best,
barry

[E93]

Mine was in the safety deposit box last time this discussion was going on, but I checked last time I was there. It is a Sweet Cap 350, Factory 30. So this can be added to your totals.
JimB

[ethicsprof]

you are wise to keep that PSA 9 safe, ole buddy.
Where've you been lately?
You can't be reading Paramahansa or Vivekananda or Satprakashananda
or Sankara day and night.

all the best,Prof. Jim

Ted Z, did you get my last email. i'm eager to hear your answers.

best,
barry

[E93]

Hi Barry,
These days I am mostly reading Kamalashila, Asanga, and Tsongkhapa, and chasing a two year old around.
JimB
P.S. The Cobb is a PSA 6. ;)

[tedzan]

Updated to include the Red Cobb's of Bruce and Jim....thanks guys. Also, two new POLAR BEAR inputs have
been reported.

I am reprising this survey for those new members who have not seen it; and, for all who might still be inte-
rested in this most popular white-bordered Tobacco card.

The latest count brings the total to 336 white-bordered Red Cobb's, of which 327 are T206's. The final tally
is listed below.

The new info garnered from this (and other) surveys is that American Litho. did NOT print this Cobb with a
UZIT back. In fact, none of the 6 super-prints in the T206 set are found with the UZIT back or the Ameri-
can Beauty 460 back. However, these six subjects can be found with virtually every other White-Bordered
Tobacco back that was issued from 1909 - 1919.


__________________________________________________ _________________________

Incidently, these two T206 backs have yet to be confirmed for the Red Cobb. Several of the 6 super-prints
have been confirmed with these 2 backs; therefore, it is possible that the Red Cobb was printed with them.
Does anyone here have a Red Cobb with either of these backs ?


BROAD LEAF 350

Red HINDU.

__________________________________________________ _________________________



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbsov460.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Red Cobb....UPDATED survey....9/22/09

..1....TY COBB back
..1....1910 COUPON (Type 1)
..3....T213-2
..3....T213-3
..1....T214
..0....T215


T206 red Cobb....UPDATED survey....9/22/09

Scarcest group......

..0....BROAD LEAF 350
..1....BROAD LEAF 460
..7....CAROLINA BRIGHTS
..7....CYCLE 460
..2....DRUM
..3....EPDG
..0....HINDU (red)
..5....LENOX (black)
15....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
..4....SOVEREIGN 460
..0....UZIT


Next toughest group......

10....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
..1....CYCLE 350
..9....SOVEREIGN 350
..6....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
..8....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
..2....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
..3....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
11....TOLSTOI


The easier ones......

22....OLD MILL
29....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
19....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30


The most available ones......

68....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
56....PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
39....POLAR BEAR


Since it is very doubtful that we will see a real UZIT red Cobb....this scan of my "exotic" UZIT red Cobb will
have to suffice.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbuzitms.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


After all....this card is not that far-fetched....Cobb is quoted as saying...."Baseball was like War"....:)


Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this survey.



TED Z

[tedzan]

Updated to include a Red Cobb with a TY COBB back and a variety of 14 newly reported T206 red Cobb's.
Thanks everyone.

I am reprising this survey for those new members who have not seen it; and, for all who might still be inte-
rested in this most popular white-bordered Tobacco card.

The latest count brings the total to 351 white-bordered Red Cobb's, of which 341 are T206's. The final tally
is listed below.

The new info garnered from this (and other) surveys is that American Litho. did NOT print this Cobb with a
UZIT back. In fact, none of the 6 super-prints in the T206 set are found with the UZIT back or the Ameri-
can Beauty 460 back. However, these six subjects can be found with virtually every other White-Bordered
Tobacco back that was issued from 1909 - 1919.


__________________________________________________ _________________________

Incidently, these two T206 backs have yet to be confirmed for the Red Cobb. Several of the 6 super-prints
have been confirmed with these 2 backs; therefore, it is possible that the Red Cobb was printed with them.
Does anyone here have a Red Cobb with either of these backs ?


BROAD LEAF 350

Red HINDU.

__________________________________________________ _________________________



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbsov460.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Red Cobb....UPDATED survey....9/25/09

..2....TY COBB back
..1....1910 COUPON (Type 1)
..3....T213-2
..3....T213-3
..1....T214
..0....T215


T206 red Cobb....UPDATED survey....9/25/09

Scarcest group......

..0....BROAD LEAF 350
..1....BROAD LEAF 460
..7....CAROLINA BRIGHTS
..7....CYCLE 460
..2....DRUM
..3....EPDG
..0....HINDU (red)
..5....LENOX (black)
15....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42
..4....SOVEREIGN 460
..0....UZIT


Next toughest group......

10....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
..1....CYCLE 350
..9....SOVEREIGN 350
..6....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42
..8....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42 (ovpt)
..4....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 25
..4....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 25
11....TOLSTOI


The easier ones......

22....OLD MILL
31....PIEDMONT 460 Factory 25
19....SWEET CAPORAL 46O Factory 30


The most available ones......

70....SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30
61....PIEDMONT 350 Factory 25
41....POLAR BEAR


Since it is very doubtful that we will see a real UZIT red Cobb....this scan of my "exotic" UZIT red Cobb will
have to suffice.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/abredcobbuzitms.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


Hey Net54er's....this card is not all that far-fetched....Cobb is quoted as saying...."Baseball is like War"....:)



Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this survey.

I'm looking forward to seeing some of you at the Philly Show in Valley Forge this weekend.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

great work, Ted, with your usual diligent scholarship!
best,

barry