Some National Thoughts

[Rich Klein]

I've had many different ways I've attended the National and whilst the show is great; I do believe there are many ways the show could be improved

First the positives:

1) The booth fees; although they seem expensive; are actually quite a bargain. If you figure 3 tables per booth and five days (including set-up) to buy or sell material; the tables average a very small amount on a per day basis.

2) The material at the show is awesome. If you can not find what you are looking for at the National; that item may not exist

3) You can SEE what you are buying. No matter how good scans are; nothing quite matches your own eyes

4) The availability for camaderie with fellow collectors/dealers is great. In my days back at Beckett; I enjoyed hanging out at Leon's/Scott's/Richard's Booth -- and got to meet and chat with many of you. That is just one example


Now for some things I'd like to see improved

1) I'd like to have the hours changed as a buyer/seller/corporate

My structure for hours would be this (And I don't think this would cost the promoters any money)

Tues == Early Set Up (Whatever the current hours for Early Set-Up would remain. Some dealers need more than one day to set-up and others want to come early. I have no problems with the extra charge for the early set-up.

Wed; Set Up Continues Until 5 PM -- After that --from 5-9 could the Corporate/Super VIP Party. Yes; booths and the show floor would be closed at that point; but dealers would have the option of staying in the venue or leaving. The party would not be on the show floor but another room. Earlier in the day; the National would have various seminars run as well. I miss those early seminars and I'd wager many collectors and dealers would love to hear insights from other of their bretheren.

Thurs: Dealer Set Up 8 Am; Super VIP entrence 9 AM; VIP 9:30; General Public 10 Am-7 PM
Events such as Leon's soiree could be held in the venue after 7 PM in other rooms on site. More on Leon Later (as he would say it's all good)

Friday: Dealer Set Up 8:30; Super VIP 9:00; Vip 9:30; general Public 10-6.

Saturday: Dealer Set up 8:30; Super VIP 9:00; VIP 9:30; General Public 10-5

Sunday: Dealer Set up 9; Super VIP 10: VIP 10:30; General Public 11-3.

Few Notes on the Hours:

1) Dealers are discouraged from closing their booth early; but with prior permission; that would be allowed. For example; since Leon is so involved with the net 54 Dinner; if he and Scott need to leave early -- that would be planned in advance and OK'd by the Nat people. This also gives approval for the Legendary people to leave early the day of their auction etc.

2) The Sunday Issue would be that no dealer can start carrying out material until 2 PM. The booth next to me was empty at 9:30 AM on Sunday and I don't know about you -- but if I pay $25 for my family to come in at 10 AM and the 3rd booth I see when I come in is closed; I wonder what exactly I paid my $$ for.


Few Other Suggestions:

1) I mentioned Seminars earlier -- if at all possible; we need to put a couple back on the schedule each year.

2) Better "approval" from the National to work with people; even if that particular deal does not make them $$. A couple of example I really enjoy is Stadiaplex; which is a really cool postcard only show run during the National but run outside the venue. Why that can't be a small part of the show I don't know. Leon's dinner is the closest thing to a hospitality room the hobby has. I know PSA does a luncheon, more of these events would be great

3) Please reduce the admission costs to enter this show. I understand for the vintage dealers that the admission cost is a small part of the cost BUT if we really want the next generation to be interested; we need to lower the cost. IIRC; the cost to park is $11 and admission to the show is $18. I don't know about you -- but a collector of "average" cards feels the pain of spending that much before they buy the cards they need for their Derek Jeter collection. We don't want to run museum's; we want to sell cards. If it turns out that attendance is about the same with much lower admission than with the $18 admission; then we can go back to the higher rate. I just want to try that once.

4) Many of the people who Run the National and are on the Board are friends of mine for many years and they know I want the National to succeed just as much as they do. I have not missed a National since 1983 and it's the best weekend of the year for me. I just want the National to be better; not an endurance contest.

5) I know a couple of people thought the show would be great with music pumped in. I agree with them and perhaps someone can figure out a way to hook up a SATellite Radio to the PA so we could listen to various stations during the day. Leon; I agree with you that we don't want Music drowning out conversations; but just as something in the background; such as MUSAK (sic) used to be.

If I think of anything else; I'll edit and post to this thread. I'm also curious as to your thoughts

Regards
Rich

[Leon]

5) I know a couple of people thought the show would be great with music pumped in. I agree with them and perhaps someone can figure out a way to hook up a SATellite Radio to the PA so we could listen to various stations during the day.

Regards
Rich

Hey Rich,
We can talk about this over lunch today but I like all of your ideas except the music one. When you have 10k+ people in a room talking it's hard to listen to music. I would be hoarse after the first day.

[slidekellyslide]

I think some low noise level baseball music could put people into a buying mood.

A little "Joltin' Joe DiMaggio" or "Willie, Mickey and the Duke".....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRvyFvoDKiA&feature=channel_page

[Jewish-collector]

I absolutely loved my entire National experience. The Net54 dinner was, without doubt, the absolute highlight of the trip to Cleveland. If the attendence keeps increasing, Leon will have to rent out a larger facility. :D

I agree with Rich that the admission price (and parking) is way too expensive. If you drive & park there, it costs $26 per day just to get in the door before you even buy anything.

I really like the National in Cleveland personally, but I think the organizers should be holding the National in additional different cities than what they are currently doing. I know next year will be in Baltimore, but then it seems to rotate between Chicago and Cleveland. Why not try other cities that have been mentioned in the past ?

During the late 1970s and early 80s, larger sports collectors conventions included seminars and discussion panels but the hobby eventually drifted into the mammoth show/autograph pavilion model. With the advance of the internet, less business than ever takes place in person and fewer discussions occur between dealers and collectors who share the same passion. I'd like to see more of these type seminars & discussions during the National weekend, either during show hours or after show hours rather than a separate "Premier Collectible Conference and Exhibition (PCCE)" show that was unsuccessfully held in April of 2008 in Chicago.

Much better & less expensive food courts. At least in Cleveland, you can't just walk outside & grab lunch. So make lunch better quality & more affordable to us poor slobs.

Regards,
Alan

[Steve D]

The change I want to see is for the National to get out of the Cleveland-Chicago-East Coast rotation.

Why not put Dallas and Los Angeles in the rotation?

I live in San Antonio TX, and the only National I've ever been able to go to was in Houston. We need to get the National to more cities, so more collectors have the chance to attend. Half the country is currently being left out of the mix, and I'm sick of it!


Steve

[Exhibitman]

Cleveland's IX Center is a shabby, shoddy, decrepit dog of a facility with terrible food, bathrooms that rival a bus station in Tijuana, and no amenities in walking distance. Shouldn't we aspire to something nicer for the premiere event of the hobby? IMO we would be far better served with a first-rate venue in a first-tier city, even if it costs a bit more. I know quite a few very "advanced" (free-spending) collectors who'd had a bellyful of Cleveland and skipped this show. Enough with the garage sale/thrift store approach. We don't need to slum it.

[Jim VB]

Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the Midwest/East Coast bias was being driven by the dealers themselves. The further west you go, the scarcer the product and exhibitors. (Especially in vintage cards, the West was still pretty unpopulated when much of the stuff we collect was distributed.)

I know the best attended National was in Anaheim, but many East Coast dealers didn't want to schlep their stuff across the country and back.

(From a retired retailer's point of view, the goal should be to schlep it across the country, SELL IT, and let someone else bring it back. Lots of guys would have to change their pricing and thinking. Novel concept, huh?)

I do know that Mike Berkus is a regular reader of the Non-Sports board. Although a good number of future events are already locked into certain cities, he may be more than willing to revisit the decision making process. I'll drop him an email and ask him if he wants to join the discussion.

[Jim VB]

Rich,

Don't think we didn't notice!

Very nice use of the word "whilst."

[benjulmag]

In the 28 or so Nationals dating back to the early '80s, exactly one has been in the New York City metropolitan area (Parsippany in 1984-sorry, Atlantic City doesn't count). Arguably New York City and its surrounds is home to the largest collecting base in the country. There has yet to be a national in Philadelphia or Boston, two major markets. I think year after year ignoring these major cities is very short-sighted. Sure its nice to have inexpensive hotels and other amenities, but its also nice to reach as much of the collecting base as possible. What would be so bad in rotating the National around geographic areas -- say one year in the northeast, the next in the midwest, then the west, southwest, southeast? Then, after the cycle has been completed, beginning it again but the next time at a different city in that geographic region.

[Ejm1]

Cleveland's IX Center is a shabby, shoddy, decrepit dog of a facility with terrible food, bathrooms that rival a bus station in Tijuana, and no amenities in walking distance. Shouldn't we aspire to something nicer for the premiere event of the hobby? IMO we would be far better served with a first-rate venue in a first-tier city, even if it costs a bit more. I know quite a few very "advanced" (free-spending) collectors who'd had a bellyful of Cleveland and skipped this show. Enough with the garage sale/thrift store approach. We don't need to slum it.

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

[glynparson]

I like Corey's idea. I also agree with exhibitman's opinion of the I-X center and I had a good show. :)

[Rich Klein]

1) Corey is correct about the megalopolis from Boston to Washington getting the short end of the stick. Frankly; the cost to everyone of being in a large city is ginormous. Frankly the NY City area does not have a reasonably priced venue that would support the National. There are venues such as MSG or the Javitz that would but I'd guarantee the table rates would be at least double what they are now. I always wondered if the Valley Forge CC was big enough for this -- I know the Ft Washington was; but when the EPSCC was there -- I bet they had an exclusive.

2) Alan -- I guess admission was cheaper by a few dollars this year. The National Promoters can not usually control the Parking Prices for customers which is why I ask that admission be reduced. In the DFW area: now when I go to Arlington for a card show I know that the pricing is now part of the money I spend.

3) Note to EJM -0- although Exhibit Man is doing OK for himself; he is not super wealthy. No need for personal insults here. And nice way to make a debut on the board.

4) My personal belief at this time is that we should be in Chicago every year. Good location near airport; plenty of parking (both high and low priced) nearby; public transportation available; hotels one can walk to (or drive to) and in all price ranges from the Embassy Suites to Motel 6; etc.

5) I'm glad you contacted Mr. Berkus; I sent a note to John Broggi about this thread. Hope Mr. Wilke does not feel left out :)

Rich

[Jim VB]

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

If your post wasn't so insulting to Adam it would make me laugh. You obviously have never met him. He's never been called some of those names before (perhaps other names, but not those.)

[mberkus]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks to Jim VB for bringing my attention to the thread. I will try to answer some of the issues, if I can, but I am not a one man show and others are part of the decision making process concerning the National. First, site selection issues. Since I live 10 minutes from the Anaheim CC, obviously I am very comfortable with the having the show return to Anaheim. Unfortuntately, the Anaheim CC will not have us. Just like the Moscone CC in SF, no consumer shows unless the CC has empty space 18 months out. We cannot wait to chance that we have a site for any year based on not having a contract 3-4 years beforehand. Lots of work to do before coming to town and do not want to risk any chance of missing a year of the show.

As for Philly, for many years Bob S. did not want us there and when Sportsfest launched, they stumbled terribly and scared the dealers vote away from the city. I lived there for 3 years and enjoyed it. Boston would be great, but the CC is too small and if Baltimore works (smallest CC we have ever had 290,000 sq ft to ave 400,000 sq ft), we might recheck Boston.

We have had serious discussions about Texas again, might happen.

As for music on the show floor, we had it for 5 years running and the dealers wanted it stopped. Nice for awhile but 5 days in a row and even your wife might agree with you.

Food concessions and parking. We have absolutely no control over any of that and do not share in any of the revenue. Sorry. Seems kind of silly to pay $4.50 for a Pepsi, must be nice to have a captive audience.

Seminars, games, fun get togethers, etc. all were part of the show during the early years. Now, no one attends any seminars, too competitive with the show hours and if we do them before or after, too long of a day. Nothing that either happens or does not happens, at the National, is not by a fluke chance. All aspects are approved by the Board of Directors, after the dealers vote on issues.

For those who had a good time, thanks for the comments. As for those who suggest changes, we always try our best to satisfy as many as possible. I will always be interested in hearing about how to make the National better.

Regards,

Mike Berkus

[dstudeba]

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

As a dealer, I need exhibitman. I was happy he bought a card from me. Unfortunately he isn't a Trust Fund Collector or he would have probably bought a few more of my cards.

[Ejm1]

3) Note to EJM -0- although Exhibit Man is doing OK for himself; he is not super wealthy. No need for personal insults here. And nice way to make a debut on the board.
Thanks. I will continue the good work.

[Jacklitsch]

Ejm1
member Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1

___________________________________________



WOW!! Nice first post. Welcome to the Board. :eek:

[benjulmag]

You didn't mention the NYC metropolitan area.

[Ejm1]

As a dealer, I need exhibitman. I was happy he bought a card from me. Unfortunately he isn't a Trust Fund Collector or he would have probably bought a few more of my cards.
Great. Fantastic. He's not a trusty fundy. The point is he thinks the I-X and Cleveland is a toilet (Which it's not, sorry) it comes across pretty arrogant. Hey, to each his own. I'm just a simple Hillbilly trying to collect ballcards.

[smtjoy]

Mike, first thanks for coming to the boards and answering some of the questions. It's nice to hear the things you all have to consider and not just from a collectors standpoint. I am in Houston so very happy to hear you are considering coming back to Texas, please do. Any consideration towards Las Vegas, I have been to a number of conventions there and really enjoyed them? I hope you all keep the options open as there are a lot of cities it would be nice to see the National at.

[Reginald Marsh]

Am i at the National...........ZZZZZZZZZZZ.............

[Rich Klein]

Mike:

TY for answering some of my concerns. As you are aware; this is not a I hate the National post; but a true post with my concerns and with my suggested solutions. After all those years I thought that was a fair way to post.

Notice the only issue I asked to be reduced was the daily admission fee. I realize that parking and concessions are beyond your realm. Just trying to assuage the pain for daily collectors a tiny bit. Just remember; the National Promoters and board members have to pay the concession prices as well. I'm also hoping; as Chris points out a few posts down; that we can attract newer people into our fold with reduced attendance.

Obviously MVP badges are better and I'm all in favor of you selling as many of those as you can. If you noted within my post; I put in my hours suggestions extra times for MVP's and Super MVP's to be on the floor. I would assume those people would spend more. I liken those type of badges to seating at "premium" baseball games. I expect more to pay for walk-up tickets when the Yankees come to Texas than I do for a mid-season mid-week series with the Kansas City Royals. For those complaining about the MVP badge price; remember under my plan AND the current plan; the people get to come in earlier; get priority (or a few free) autos and get a better chance at better cards. MVP badges actually protects those collectors who want more chances at better cards.

As a note to most posters; one of the reasons SportsFest in Philly had so much trouble was that it was a downtown show. Trust me on this; very few card shows work in a downtown venue. They need to be where cars can come to them. Downtown shows stopped working for the most part by 1982. Al Rosen's 1988 MSG show was a rare exception and frankly one of the reasons for the big success of that show was that Richard Nader, the famed Rock Music Show Promoter had a big part in promotion for that show.

The GR Brown convention center in Houston is a very nice facility for a show. I'm also a big fan (perhaps the only one) of Market Hall in Dallas.

I appreciate those who are keeping this thread in the manner to which it was intended. For those going after E-Man; etc. please take your postings to PM's.

Regards
Rich

[slidekellyslide]

Mike, first thanks for coming to the boards and answering some of the questions. It's nice to hear the things you all have to consider and not just from a collectors standpoint. I am in Houston so very happy to hear you are considering coming back to Texas, please do. Any consideration towards Las Vegas, I have been to a number of conventions there and really enjoyed them? I hope you all keep the options open as there are a lot of cities it would be nice to see the National at.

How about Kansas City? Attendees can see a ballgame and visit the Negro League Museum as well.

http://www.kcconvention.com/cec.nsf/web/facilityfacts

[ChrisStufflestreet]

Rich,

First of all...glad to meet you this year. Had a great time chewing the fat with you and Alan after the Net54 dinner.

Great points. But I'd like to add something the two of us discussed then: even though the majority of Net54 people are concerned with prewar vintage stuff, there's the fact that none of us is getting any younger. What about the future collectors?

My daughter Melissa (10 years old, she stopped in for the dinner and was wearing a Red Sox jersey) had a blast this year because I decided to make the trip as much hers as I did mine. In fact, this year my wife did the yeoman's work of adding to my collection while Melissa and I looked around for stuff, got autographs and enjoyed our time together. It was a major win/win for me: Ellen didn't get to give me her usual "you spent how much?" speech and my daughter got some valuable time with her Daddy (especially since we're nearing those dreaded teenage years and my window of opportunity for Daddy/daughter time is going to close just as soon as she realizes I'm "uncool") that will be a great memory even after the collection becomes a thing of the past.

I've said it in another thread and I'll say it again here: my daughter had a better show than I did (and I had a great time). Several fellow hobbyists commented to me that it was great to see a kid getting involved, and that began a discussion with my wife as we drove back home. Had I been able to attend a National at the same age (in my case, that would have been '83 Chicago), would I have had the same great time?

Sadly, I think it wouldn't have happened the same way for me. That's because when I attended my first show (in 1985 at the State Office Building in Watertown, NY) I sensed that the dealers were a little reluctant to deal with kids. In a way, the most important thing about kids was the wallets their parents were carrying so dealing with those little snot-nosed cardbenders was a means to the end result of earning money. In my case, I was well-versed on 1950s baseball by then and was able to get through to some dealers by talking with them. However, looking at 1985 vs. 2009 may be an apples/oranges comparison; then, 30-year old cards were from 1955 and were valuable enough to make my mother admonish me to be very careful if I picked them up, but today, 1979 Topps commons are tossed without a second thought into 25-cent boxes.

It made me think...when several people stopped by to commend me for simply bringing my little girl along to the show, it made me realize that I don't see the father/son pairs searching for cards as frequently as I did when I was a "weekend warrior" seller from 1989-'92.

Not so much a question as a stray thought I've had since leaving the show...

[tothrk]

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

Welcome. You bring that old "jump in head first" saying to a whole new level. I agree that a venue with better food and a nicer latrine would be nice. Also, some accomadations or anything within walking distance would be nice. I live only 45 minutes from the I-X center so I'm basically interested in nicer food & a clean bathroom. Getting some different cities involved would be nice. However, the whole "Super MVP" and "MVP" and "Platinum Poobah" puts me off.

[mberkus]

Hello Again,

As time permits, I can check back to review additional comments. Actually, the 2 weeks after the show are the hardest. Both exhausted and have to finish up a ton of details.

NY was one of the funniest experiences ever for trying to set up a National. We went into the Javits Center, since we need a minmum size floor, and met with their space reps. With consideration to booth fees, we actually struck a deal. Then the two guys from the decorator's union came into the meeting. They asked "how much do you charge for a booth to your people?" I told them, at the time, $650. They moved their toothpicks around a bit and came back with "OK, you need 2 tables, 4 chairs, and a small sign in each booth. That will be $2450". I thought they had misunderstood and I repeated we only charge $650 per booth. But they replied " That's your problem". After working with the hotels, parking, and the Javits, we figured booths would be a reasonable $3500 each, hotel nights $425, and parking $35 per day.

KC was too small a site for us last time we check, nice city though!

Booth prices are based on competitive collectible shows and what is needed to pay the $400,000.00 facility and decorator fees. Admission price is based on the amount needed for advertising, marketing, promotions. We run an average of 14 newspaper ads, 500 radio spots, and 50 TV ads. We also pay for Cleveland.com, travel mags, online sites, and banners. The average ad we place is $9500.00 per 1/4 page. Once we put this together we count on the previous attendance numbers and come up with as reasonable an amount for per person to attend. We never profit much on attendance, just one of those things since our hobby has decreased a bit.

Finally, the aspect of admission price. Kind of silly to pay to come into a facility to buy stuff? Always bothered me. But, the costs to host the show have to be met somehow and admission fees are one of the streams of income. On a very personal note, certainly not shared by my partners, I figured that if a person could not handle the parking and admission price, then how much does it mean to the dealers who are looking to sell cards? If $18 to get in and $8 to park are a burden, then how do we rationalize the guy who flys in and has to stay in a hotel and rent a car? No easy answer. But, as usual in a free society, those who feel the value pay the way and those that don't, stay home. I remember an individual who told me that if it wasn't worth the price of admission, it probably wasn't worth going to.

Hope to see everyone in Baltimore. Seems like a lot of excitement to hit a brand new territory.

Best regards,

Mike

[Exhibitman]

I don't know Eric, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt...this time...and let his post speak for itself. The irony, of course is that I'm probably the cheapest, lowest grade, least trust-funded collector this side of Alan (hi Alan; no offense, we're all mishpacha here...).

Regardless, anyone with even half a brain can see that the difference between last year's show (Rosemont) and this year's show (IX Center) is like night and day. Rosemont had four hotels across the street with a bevy of restaurants nearby. No parking, no driving, no shuttles, no IX "cuisine" at ridiculous prices (I could eat at Gibson's every day for what the IX wanted for its slop). It had myriad places throughout the center to sit down (in easy chairs) and relax between floor walks. It was easy to go back to one's hotel and relax for a while. It was simply superior in every possible way to the Cleveland venue. The people who attended this year's show described it to me as "shabby" "a slog" "unpleasant" "seedy" and several other less than salutary terms. Given that the IX Center is so far below the standard of Rosemont, there is no good reason to ever go back there.

[Reginald Marsh]

If someone is complaining dealer or buyer about parking and admission which is a total of 26 bucks then stay at home and buy on e-bay. I personally think 26 dollars is cheap to see some of the best cards in the world in one room and a chance to complete sets or find super rare cards.

In a world full of folks constantly griping about a few dollars try fastening your seatbelts and think about the folks that lost their entire life savings in Madoff's crazy scheme.

If a person wants to buy nickel and dime cards then they do not need to go to the national to find them. I almost fell off my chair when i guy rolled up and said i am here for one reason and that is to find the 1969 Ted Williams manager card do you have one?

I do think their needs to be some light rock-n-roll background music because the room needs energy and the music does not need to be cranked just played.

[tothrk]

It would be a change of pace to hold the National on a cruise ship. Maybe a 5 day Caribbean excursion.

[Ejm1]

If a person wants to buy nickel and dime cards then they do not need to go to the national to find them. I almost fell off my chair when i guy rolled up and said i am here for one reason and that is to find the 1969 Ted Williams manager card do you have one?

I get your point, but if all the collectors of this type vanished, whats left? Just make it a trade show not open to the public, dealers only. It seems the small timer is not a welcome guest.

[rc4157]

This was my 1st National so I can't compare to any of the other venues. I kind of expected food to be expensive and it was certainly enjoyable to see all of the cards available, even if I wasn't purchasing in the high dollar range.

It sounds like Chicago was a great place to host the National, that would still be within driving distance for me, approx. 5 hours, so I'd like to experience the convention there in 2 years.

Overall, I had a great time, the highlight was meeting some board members at the dinner.

Oh yeah, background music would be good, but it would have to be soft enough to allow discussion and would have to vary enough to not drive people crazy that are confined to their booths for 5 days.

Edit to add: I felt welcomed by the majority of dealers, even some who just wanted to share info. regarding particular players. One dealer shared a scrapbook of Ted Kluszewski material after I asked him about a '49 Leaf of Klu, he didn't have the card but shared the album. I'm sure he would have liked for me to purchase it but he just thought it was a pretty cool item, which it is.

RC

[mjkm90]

I'm a memorabilia guy and have a small group of cellecting buddies who attend the National most years. We have different income levels, life situations, and collecting budgets, but we would ALL attend and LOVE the National if it were held behind the dumpster at Ponderosa. I'm there for the people and the product. I am fortunate enough to have the means to attend a ball game, high end restaurant, or posh hotel when I wish, but the National is my destination for this trip. Sitting on a box in a booth or drinking cheap beer in a motel room and telling hobby stories is fine with me. Every penny I spend on hotel and food means less money to spend with dealers. I met a few card guys at the dinner, all were super nice, and seemed very into the experience not the location.

[Exhibitman]

Mike H: Understood. However, wouldn't it be nice if the experience was pleasant as a whole rather than tolerated for the cards, esp. since the costs are about the same? My point being that you don't have to do the premiere trade show in the convention center equivalent of a rec center basement. If you do that every other year, you risk losing your customer base. I know for a fact that quite a few collectors who are active on this board did not attend this year's show because they did not want to go to the IX again.

As far as cheap/readily acquired cards go, everyone collects what they like, and sure, they can probably buy on Ebay, but those who attended the show looking for common cards still wanted to come to a National. Which makes it all the more important to get those people an experience that isn't second rate. If the experience is seedy, unpleasant, unmemorable, etc., for the casual collector, they aren't going to come back, because they can do the same thing on Ebay.

Rich K: I don't think incremental changes in the admission and parking costs are going to deter any collectors from attendance or encourage anyone to come to the show solely on that basis.

Music is a horrible idea. In order to make it anything more than background noise it would have to be loud enough to be intelligible, which would make it too loud to converse over.

[Ejm1]

I'm a memorabilia guy and have a small group of cellecting buddies who attend the National most years. We have different income levels, life situations, and collecting budgets, but we would ALL attend and LOVE the National if it were held behind the dumpster at Ponderosa. I'm there for the people and the product. I am fortunate enough to have the means to attend a ball game, high end restaurant, or posh hotel when I wish, but the National is my destination for this trip. Sitting on a box in a booth or drinking cheap beer in a motel room and telling hobby stories is fine with me. Every penny I spend on hotel and food means less money to spend with dealers. I met a few card guys at the dinner, all were super nice, and seemed very into the experience not the location.
Love this post!

[Ejm1]

Exhibitman:
Sorry for the harsh words, I just get tired of the Cleveland bashing. It seems that if it's not a costal city it must be a dump. Long live the small collector.


Instead of music perhaps a mini Jubotron type screen with old W.S. highlights or old newsreels about sports or just about anything with Mel Allens or Curt Gowdys voice.

[Mark]

One of the most appealing aspects of the Cleveland show is that you can drive there from many other cities in a day. A bit of a drive from Boston, but most other big cities are fairly close. Maybe Pittsburgh has a convention center near some good hotels and bars?

[Ray Van]

First of all, I thought the bathrooms were clean and the food wasn't bad. $5 for a slice of pizza and a Pepsi isn't bad considering ... and there were lots of different food choices. Not haut cuisine, but not bad either. Logistics plays a role in that large venues tend to be close to airports - in Cleveland's case there's not a lot within walking distance but that's what you get - and you know that going in, so don't complain about it after the fact! Cleveland is a nice city and we enjoyed our trip - we drove in from Toronto and stayed downtown - my trusty GPS got me from the hotel to the show and back.

My biggest peeve about the show is the dealers that pack up early or don't even bother showing up on Sunday. That happened to be the only day I could go and this was my first taste of the National in about 20 years. I was there for the day, but in the afternoon almost every second table was deserted. Not a pleasant experience - more needs to be done to keep dealers there for the entirety of the show. No excuses. Sorry, you'll just have to book a later flight.

I also found most items to be very overpriced. I wasn't expecting fleabay prices, but 3-4x ebay prices is a little ridiculous. I left with $1000 burning a hole in my pocket (and I don't have deep pockets) - imagine how much more you could sell if your prices were more in tune with reality? Of course I'll pay more to see and hold something in person ... but only to a point.

And the comment about the 1969 Ted Williams card - you are missing the point. That is the collector you want to cultivate - we all started there at some point. If that person has a positive experience, maybe next time he will be collecting the Fleer Ted Williams set or an autographed bat - who knows where that will lead to (I never thought I'd get a Turkey Red but I picked up my first two a couple weeks ago). We all play in role in nurturing new and experienced collectors alike - snobbery about cities, venues, or collecting habits isn't necessary.

Two additional suggestions for sellers:
1) put prices on your stuff - chances are I'm not going to ask how much, instead I'll find another table with the same item with a price on it
2) make eye contact and turn away from your conversation with a buddy - you might lose a sale otherwise

Despite some minor negative thoughts, I found the experience overall to be a positive one and something I will come back to in the future ... just not every year.

[Jewish-collector]

The admission & parking fees will never deter me from going, but it is a hell of a lot of money. That money could have been used for cards & memorabilia.

Also wanted to add that the House of Blues in Cleveland is an absolutely fantastic concert venue. Too bad Alice in Chains wasn't playing there while I was in Cleveland. http://vbbc.forumotion.com/users/17/23/61/smiles/136179.gif

[bcornell]

I just did my 7th straight National. Not a great year for buying cards, but I'm still glad the event exists. And it's good to hear from Mike Berkus about the logistics. There was a rumor that 2011 would be in Anaheim, but I guess that's out. Looking forward to Baltimore and 30-40 of us having a slumber party at Dan Mckee's house.

My only request is find anywhere else other than Cleveland: 3x in 6 years coming from the West Coast is a drag. There's now just one direct flight from SFO to there per day. Our Seattle friends had to go through Dallas. Etc.

My favorite moment from this show was a spontaneous sale to a Phillies collector that I made at Rhett Yeakley's table. The guy mentioned he wanted a D381 Fleischmann Bancroft and I had my only dupe from that set in my backpack. He was glad & so was I. Oh - and thanks for letting me poach, Rhett.


Bill

[Steve D]

One of the most appealing aspects of the Cleveland show is that you can drive there from many other cities in a day. A bit of a drive from Boston, but most other big cities are fairly close. Maybe Pittsburgh has a convention center near some good hotels and bars?


That's true, if you live east of the Mississippi River and north of the Mason-Dixon Line. Those who live elsewhere (like me) have to fly, and I for one, can't afford to spend upwards of $500 before I even get in the convention's door.


Steve

[NonSportDaniel]

I collect almost exclusively non-sports cards, with an occasional boxing focus, so my thoughts might differ from most of you on this board. I do lurk here every day as I really appreciate all of your knowledge and enjoy the topics and banter.

It is impossible for me to be anywhere during the week so I can only attend a show like the National on Saturday and Sunday. I was at the show all day Saturday and all day Sunday and found it nearly impossible to see everything that was on display for sale. The thought of cutting back the hours on those days is one that I find abhorrent. Additionally many dealers didn't even show on Sunday so several cards that I decided that I wanted after I walked the show floor (which took the entire 10-6 on Saturday) I couldn't go back and purchase on Sunday. Also, there seems to be a skewed focus on dealer to dealer time and not enough on random buyer to dealer time, at least for someone like me who can only attend on weekends.

I'm fairly young and have one in private college and one in private high school so I don't/can't spend as freely as I suspect some who post here are able (at least not today; but today my kids are my main focus, not my collecting). My budget for the National might be $700, although I fully realize that I'll probably spend more like $1000 (and did, of course). $26 per day to walk in the door for two days is like a 5.2% loss of my spending money, assuming I spend the full $1000; no small percentage in my humble opinion. I have a hard time believing that my $1000 is considered to be so small chump change by the dealers that they are indifferent if I even show up, but I suppose that everyone is entitled to their opinion and anything is possible.

I'm a midwesterner so my vote would be to keep it in Chicago, for what my vote is worth.

I enjoyed meeting Leon as well as many other dealers and collectors and look forward to 2011 as I'm not sure that Baltimore is doable for me.

[JamesGallo]

I think I have a rather unique view of shows, as I have done them all over the world. I went to the last national in Cleveland, I have done shows in LA, NYC and Chicago.

The price for a 10x10 booth at the Javis center for NY Comic Con is $1000 plus $200 per table but you could bring your own if you wanted to. This is far from what was said above and this show was only last year. If could be slightly different as this is an annual show, so maybe they get better prices.

The Chicago comic con has a similar type cost. I personally don't like the Javis venue as there isn't much around food or hotel wise, but obviously cabs are very easy to get.

Downtown LA has a huge center but it closed down early and after 8 you couldn't find a place to eat.

My understanding is that the Baltimore convention center is huge since it expanded.

What about the Nassau Coliseum, I remember the old shows in the 90s and they were great. Plenty of hotels at reasonable prices and not hard to get to. Should be plenty of room as well.

I do think the north east would do well with a national.

I think the food and bathrooms are typical of any large venue, I don't recall the food being so bad in Cleveland, it just seemed that it was a bit dated.

At the comic and star wars shows they have stuff going on all the time, but I think that works because there are more aspects to those properties, such as writers, actors, artists etc. Those aspects down draw for sports cards. Perhaps more kid friendly things would work though.

As for the VIP tickets the only use I found for them was early admission. I have had no interest in any of the signers for the last few shows so getting stuff signed does me no good. I would prefer to have an option of a non autograph VIP ticket at a reduced price.

Just some thoughts.

James G

[tbob]

The change I want to see is for the National to get out of the Cleveland-Chicago-East Coast rotation.

Why not put Dallas and Los Angeles in the rotation?

I live in San Antonio TX, and the only National I've ever been able to go to was in Houston. We need to get the National to more cities, so more collectors have the chance to attend. Half the country is currently being left out of the mix, and I'm sick of it!


Steve

Amen. Chicago every 4th year and drop Cleveland. Baltimore next year will be great and I wish 2011 was in Dallas and 2012 in St. Louis.

[Bamacollection]

My only thought on the National...JEALOUS!!!! Some day, some year...It will happen!

[tbob]

I've been to about 8 of the Nationals and the ones in Arlington (Dallas) and St. Louis are right at the top of the ones I have attended although the 2006 Chicago National was excellent also.
Baltimore was a great choice. The continuing less than dynamic duo of Chicago and Cleveland is not.

[tbob]

[QUOTE=Ray Van;739954]

And the comment about the 1969 Ted Williams card - you are missing the point. That is the collector you want to cultivate - we all started there at some point. If that person has a positive experience, maybe next time he will be collecting the Fleer Ted Williams set or an autographed bat - who knows where that will lead to (I never thought I'd get a Turkey Red but I picked up my first two a couple weeks ago). We all play in role in nurturing new and experienced collectors alike

Well said.

[Reginald Marsh]

Not true.....everyone is welcome just not those who complain about fees. If you are only looking for a 10 dollar card then why drive 4 hours and pay 26 bucks to get in. I would never travel to the National looking for things i could find everyday in multiple places.

[Oldtix]

From 1986 to 2001, I was an exhibitor at 11 Nationals. I returned to the National for the first time last week just as a fan and really enjoyed the experience. Here's my two cents from the perspective of "fresh eyes".

(1) I didn't see pogs, beanie babies pavillions, TV celebrity autograph guests, X-treme sports stunts or rabid buying of promo cards by lobby squatters. True, there was a ferris wheel...but nobody's perfect. Congratulations to all of us for beating those cancers into remission.

(2) I entered at 10 am Friday and finished seeing every table a half hour before closing time, even taking time to chat and grab a bite for lunch. That would never have been possible with the 1,000-plus tables of the boom years. Congratulations to the organizers for seeing that bigger isn't always better.

(3) With few exceptions, I felt that almost every exhibitor was genuinely interested in what they were selling. I'm sure there were mercenaries there, but nowhere near as many as in days gone by. Countless times I saw them sharing their knowledge and their wants with customers and with other dealers. The brotherhood of collectors seems to be strong; the Net54 dinner was terrific.

(4) We definitely have an aging collector base, but if addressing that takes us back to pogs and beanie babies...let us die off with our dignity and resist a relapse.

(5) The organizers did a fantastic job of mixing up the dealers. There was great variety from table to table; I never glazed over at repetitive themes in any aisles. And there weren't many tables of artificial "collectibles."

(6) There were extraordinary treasures as in the old days (and not just at the auction house booths). A novice would absolutely feel like they had visited Cooperstown. Whether they sold or not, I'm grateful to all who brought their best stuff to the show. And the focus of the show was the stuff, not the fluff.

In summary, it felt like a true National Sports Collectors Convention should feel. Sure, the hobby has issues as readers of these boards are well aware...but this collector's spirit was refreshed!

[Wite3]

I missed this year's National for no other reason than the economy. A flight from LA to Cleveland was expensive. Before people jump on me...I did check it out well in advance. How about putting a National in a city that is a flight hub like Pittsburgh, Atlanta, or Dallas. Cheaper airfare, hotels, and venues are probably more likely to be found in those cities.

I would love it to be in Vegas but there is resistance to that venue. Vegas really does have it all, Convention centers, cheap flights/hotels, good public transportation, entertainment for the whole family, etc.

Joshua

[buymycards]

Rich, I agree with several of your points. I wasn't able to make the National this year, but I attended the large show in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, and that experience mirrored the experience that I had a the Chicago national a couple of years back.

I live 4 hours from Chicago, so I left home early enough to get to the show when it opened at 10:00 on Sunday. Some of the dealers left on Saturday, and by noon on Sunday several tables were empty. By 2:00 most of the dealers started packing up and by 3:00 there were only a few dealers still selling cards.

8 hours driving
6 bucks in tolls
12 bucks parking
10 bucks to get in the show
32 bucks for gas
Food prices at the show were outrageous

I had several cards that I was looking for, but I felt that the prices on the cards that I wanted were completely out of line compared to the BST and ebay. I didn't buy a card until around 2:00.

I love the big shows, and I don't mind the drive, but it really ticks me off when the dealers leave early.

[Jewish-collector]

Daniel,

The National is not really for the financially challenged. My guess is that most of the "average" collectors who go to this show take between $2K and $5K looking for specific cards/memorabilia. It's all relative as I probably have the least amount to spend, so the $26 per day is a sizable chunk for me. But that's OK, because as Ronnie Milsap says, "I wouldn't miss it for the world". :D

[Yankeefan51]

We find EJM's comments about the East Coast and the plethora of advanced collectors to be an inane. Another “lower class commentary” from the same crowd that elected the government whose economic programs are sure to bankrupt America.

Wealthy, successful people have rights too. The joy of the National is having the opportunity to acquire truly unique items, and exchange collecting experiences with world class collectors.

Although we have not been able to attend the National for the past few years, we enjoyed 16 shows where we had the chance to see Four Base Hits, Texas Tommy's and an Old Judge advertising poster, and countless other rare items.

As for poor, pathetic EJM, when the National is New York City, we will provide him with a job cleaning bathrooms. Perhaps he will get lucky, and clean up after an advanced collector. That may be as close as he ever comes to tasting the joy of owning an ultra rare, high grade baseball card.

[zork1974]

For those of us in Canada, our National is the Sportcard and Memorabilia Expo at the International Centre in Toronto. It happens twice a year with a focus on mainly hockey collectables.

My friend and I attend every show with money to spend, usually thousands of dollars. We scour the floor looking for any vintage baseball that we can get our hands on. If we're lucky, we might find 5 tables out of the 900+ where there might be something to purchase.

My point is this. How many of us will pony up $50 for a meal with the family? How many of us will spend $40+ to go to the movies with our kids? I spend $50+ to attend each of these card shows and I know there is a good chance I'll be leaving with nothing. To me, it's an experience that I can only have twice a year. For those of you who get to attend the National every year, I'm jealous. I would pay $26 in an instant just to see all that eye candy in one room.

[Matt]

How about putting a National in a city that is a flight hub like Pittsburgh, Atlanta, or Dallas.


Cleveland is a hub for Continental, but I do understand that they may not provide enough convenient flights for everyone.

[Ladder7]

Damn, I missed it! When did Cleveland lose it's 'Peepee Capital of America' status anyway?

I been there once. We had to make a beer run as our Amtrak train (enroute Great Mistakes, Ill for bootcamp) had run out of Highlife... I believe the River that runs through the city had spontaneously burst into flames at some point prior. And I thought WE had dirty water!

With our rich, ancient baseball traditions, The Hub needs to play host to the National. Then, I can finally make one. Beware however, It's rumored that Beantown is populated by overproud, pompous massholes :p

[Mrc32]

. How about putting a National in a city that is a flight hub like Pittsburgh, Atlanta, or Dallas. Cheaper airfare, hotels, and venues are probably more likely to be found in those cities.



Baltimore is a hub for Southwest Airlines. You should be able to get a reasonable flight.

[David W]

I live in Indiana, so Chicago and Cleveland are close.

I went to Chicago last year, and as a guy who drives in and spends one day and leaves, Cleveland is a much better alternative. I was in Chicago last year on a Thursday, Cleveland this year on Friday.

It's much easier to drive into the Cleveland IX than Rosemont. Chicago traffic at 9:00 A.M. is just not worth it. Chicago traffic at 6:00 is just not worth it. I still remember the drive back, a bad accident on 94 south had traffic completely stopped on Thursday, I managed to get off and take an alternate route that added 50 miles to the trip, but at least I didn't spent 3 hours not moving.

I took $700 to spend, I'm guessing that I'm within range of what the majority of people walking around had to spend. I spent most of it.

My guess is way more "average joe's" show up at a National, than guys looking to spend $10K. I saw a lot more "action" at tables with bargain boxes than high end PSA graded stuff. There were a lot of set collectors scrounging through commons boxes filling out sets.

There were a lot of friendly dealers, there were a lot of un friendly dealers. I spent all my money with friendly dealers who would chit chat for a while.

[Ejm1]

We find EJM's comments about the East Coast and the plethora of advanced collectors to be an inane. Another “lower class commentary” from the same crowd that elected the government whose economic programs are sure to bankrupt America.

Wealthy, successful people have rights too. The joy of the National is having the opportunity to acquire truly unique items, and exchange collecting experiences with world class collectors.

Although we have not been able to attend the National for the past few years, we enjoyed 16 shows where we had the chance to see Four Base Hits, Texas Tommy's and an Old Judge advertising poster, and countless other rare items.

As for poor, pathetic EJM, when the National is New York City, we will provide him with a job cleaning bathrooms. Perhaps he will get lucky, and clean up after an advanced collector. That may be as close as he ever comes to tasting the joy of owning an ultra rare, high grade baseball card.

Thanks for the kind words. Maybe I'll get lucky and meet you someday.

[David W]

We find EJM's comments about the East Coast and the plethora of advanced collectors to be an inane. Another “lower class commentary” from the same crowd that elected the government whose economic programs are sure to bankrupt America.

Wealthy, successful people have rights too. The joy of the National is having the opportunity to acquire truly unique items, and exchange collecting experiences with world class collectors.

Although we have not been able to attend the National for the past few years, we enjoyed 16 shows where we had the chance to see Four Base Hits, Texas Tommy's and an Old Judge advertising poster, and countless other rare items.

As for poor, pathetic EJM, when the National is New York City, we will provide him with a job cleaning bathrooms. Perhaps he will get lucky, and clean up after an advanced collector. That may be as close as he ever comes to tasting the joy of owning an ultra rare, high grade baseball card.

The joy of the National is having the opportunity to acquire truly unique items, and exchange collecting experiences with world class collectors.

Maybe for you, but not for me. And unfortunately for you, you're outnumbered, plus you don't even attend it anymore, so your opinion really doesn't matter anymore, does it?

[Exhibitman]

Just want to clarify one issue: my comments re Cleveland are not based on snobbery, coastal resident superiority (last time I checked Chicago wasn't on either coast) or anything other than a sincere desire for the best National experience possible. Anyone who's gone to Rosemont and to IX has to agree that the Rosemont venue is better in every respect, for the same money.

[boysblue]

How about taking the National international? Head north to Toronto.:)

Failing that, Baltimore is a welcome change and I think it will be an enormously successful show. Need to include an east coast location into the rotation.

Cleveland? I-X Centre does lack a certain "charm", though it is handy to the airport and a wide range of hotel choices.

[Tim Fritz]

I went to my first National last year in Chicago and will go again when it heads back in 2011. As a low-end vintage collector I looked at going to the National as visit to a museum and a card show in one.

I got to see cards and memorabilia that I've never seen in person before and spent a few hundred bucks along the way. Also got to meet and talk with fellow collectors. I was the sponge. The $100 or so I spent to get there, park and get in would be the same as going to a museum in Chicago. I thought the admission price was very fair.

One thing that I thought would be cool is to have more of an entrance area that grabs your attention. You could have music/videos playing in there maybe for people that want a break from the floor or get you juiced up to being at world class card show. I know it all adds to the bottom line, but just my 2 cents worth.

[danmckee]

Great thread!!! Cleveland I-X center has easy access to onsight bars, Chicago did not, nuff said on which location is better.

Sales wise, my 3 best shows ever were: Cleveland, Cleveland, and Cleveland.

Though this show was good for me, it wasn't one of my best 3.

I did manage to go from a priority 28 to a priority 3 and will now be at the very back of the Baltimore National with probably the best display in the show as I will be bringing out much of my personal Baltimore collection for sale.

I think someone forgot that we are exempt from all Anaheim shows since we were robbed in 1991 and counted me missing those shows against me.

I can't win

[Dan Carson]

I think the National should be held on the west coast, until cooler heads prevail!:p

[tbob]

I thought I read somewhere where the people who organized the great National in Arlington, Texas (Dallas) either passed away or due to bad health were no longer able to participate. Wanda Marcus and her husband maybe? I believe it was in the early 90's. I bought my first tobacco cards at that National so it holds a special place in my heart. Someone also mentioned Kansas City. There used to be a terrific show there in the 90's which rivaled the National but I haven't heard anything about it in many years.
Boston? Would be great. I'd love to go to New Orleans or Vegas also but my thought is that they are probably out of the question :(

[Rich Klein]

IIRC; she had elective surgery for a torn rotator cuff so she could play more golf and do less work. Sadly; she never woke up from the surgery.

Our show may be too big for the current Arlington Convention Center and the Dallas Convention Center being downtown would mean even more of a ghost town on Sunday of the National and before. However; soon at least we'll be able to walk to the CC from the Host Hotel.

IIRC; Market Hall in Dallas has enough room for the show; but no one other than me seems to like that location for a show in the DFW area.

Rich

[Bicem]

Market Hall in Dallas has enough room for the show; but no one other than me seems to like that location for a show in the DFW area.

Rich

I do!!!!

[Leon]

I do!!!!

I vote for Dallas since there are no Convention Centers (or barely street lights) in Lucas TX......

[Joe Hunter]

tBob: The great shows you were referring to in KC were promoted by John Mailen and Jim Cumpton. They started in the early to mid "80's and ran through the very early '90's. They always had great autograph guests(Mantle, Williams, DiMaggio, etc), and their fees were very reasonable. Tristar also had some decent shows after Mailen and Cumpton ended theirs, but I didn't think they were as good. As much as I would like to see a National in KC, the venue is just not there. KC is more suited for regional shows, which have been few and far between.

[Jewish-collector]

TriStar used to have a 3-day show in Overland Park, Kansas. It used to be fantastic. Not sure why it didn't last. :confused:

[Rich Klein]

Tri-Star has put their energies into more autograph ventures; minor league sets and the occassional show. I believe they now just do a couple in Houston and one in SF.

KC is open for someone else to step in and I believe some promoters have tried.

Rich

[Vintagedegu]

-

[toppcat]

Strong regional shows (say 250 tables) are something sorely needed in this hobby, as are strong city/local suburbs type shows (125-150 tables). Maybe with ebay turning into a wasteland we'll see shows again like this.

[HexsHeroes]

By my count, from 1980 - 2009, the National has been held in the following cities:

7x Chicago, IL
5x Anaheim, CA
5x Cleveland, OH
2x Arlington, TX
2x Atlanta, GA
2x Atlantic City, NJ
2x St. Louis, MO
1x Detroit, MI
1x Houston, TX
1x Los Angeles, CA
1x Parsippany, NJ (across from NYC0
1x San Francisco, CA


I am sure other locations continue to be investigated, with a strong emphasis on accessibility, lodging, costs, climate, etc.

Some of the other significant cities that came to my mind for outside consideration include:

Richmond, VA
Philadelphia, PA
Pittsburgh, PA
Cincinnati, OH
Lexington, KY
Indianapolis, IN
Minneapolis, MN
Milwaukee, WS
Des Moines, IA
Wichita, KS
Lincoln, NE
Omaha, NE
Denver, CO
Reno, NV

I am sure there are some wonderful options in Oregon or Washington state too.

[Jim VB]

In talking to Mike Berkus yesterday, the first thing he mentioned is that any potential site have 300,000 square feet of exhibitor space, all on one level. Baltimore will be right at that minimum.

If that condition is met, they move on to things like hotels (prices and availability), parking, union rules, etc.

That size venue will eliminate an awful lot of potential locations.

[autograf]

Lexington KY is out.............not enough floor space. Louisville would be in based on that though. No major league teams in about 2/3 of your list above too. Typically the home team (or one of them) is home when the national is in play. Is that a dealbreaker? Not for me but just saying..........

[Jewish-collector]

Does Pittsburgh have a facility large enough ? You would think the organizers would like to take advantage of the city's success in FB and hockey.

[slidekellyslide]

[QUOTE=HexsHeroes;740400]
I am sure other locations continue to be investigated, with a strong emphasis on accessibility, lodging, costs, climate, etc.

Some of the other significant cities that came to my mind for outside consideration include:


Lincoln, NE
Omaha, NE

[/QUOTE

Neither Omaha or Lincoln have facilities large enough for the National. Lincoln does have the Lancaster Event Center which I'm sure has enough square footage, but it's spread out over 5 buildings...there is definitely ample parking and all the buildings are very close together. Would never happen though. Heck, I'd settle for a card show in just one of the buildings...the only show that goes on around here is 2-3 times at the mall...and that's just a joke...only once have I seen anyone there with pre WW1 material and it was outrageously priced.

[mberkus]

Hi, been reading all the posts and as you all probably figured out, there are as many opinions as collectors. Anyway, here is an update, we signed a 3 show deal in Chicago (2011, 2013, 2015). This was instituted basically because we were threatened by a local promotor to take over the Rosemont location and prevent us from running any future shows. Sad, but we did prevail. This was attempted by the Sportfest group 8 years ago as well. Seems like none of the smaller regional shows are happy just running their own event, they try very hard to kill the National. So far it's the National 3 Obsolete Shows 0. I am sure another group will try again.

So, we have Balt 2010, Chicago 2011, Cleveland 2012, Chicago 2013, 2014 is open, 2015 is Chicago. We are looking at Atlantic City, Las Vegas, I will try Anaheim again, Dallas, St. Louis, and Boston.

As for Toronto, lots of rules and regulations about going back and forth. I heard horror stories from dealers taking inventories across the border. Plus, not sure about facilities or taxes?

KC has not produced a sucessful show in years, not sure why but it seems that many of the cities that had very popular annual shows have died off for the same reason....eBay? When we started the National, Detroit, St.Louis, Indianapolis, KC, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Philly, Mpls, Long Island, Pittsburg, San Francisco, Seattle, Arizona, North Carolina, and NJ had tons of shows and all solid. TriStar and Naxcom tried to reinstate the local regional theme and to the best of my knowledge, just found very little interest.

Well, just remember, you don't attend the National for the food, bathrooms, parking, hotels, sightseeing, or weather. As long as the dealers are buying and selling the best of the best, it becomes a great mecca for all of us serious collectors.

Check out the ESPN coverage of the show, very positive.

Thanks again for caring, without the emotion, we have nothing.

Regards,

Mike Berkus

[Exhibitman]

Well, just remember, you don't attend the National for the food, bathrooms, parking, hotels, sightseeing, or weather.



True, but having a crappy facility, etc., when a nice one can be had just as easily doesn't make a lot of sense. It also dissuades some guys whose families come to these events from showing up. At least a few friends of mine did not make the trip this year because their families rebelled. Granted, you could argue that the guys should probably have hitched up their skirts, found their nards, and made the trip solo, but you can't criticize them too much for acquiescing to their families' demands for a better vacation than Cleveland. My point is that the National rotation is alienating a portion of the customer base, which can't be good for anyone, and is doing so needlessly.

Vegas, Baby! That would be soooo choice.

[Matt]

Vegas, Baby! That would be soooo choice.

You don't think customers would spend some of their card buying budget elsewhere if the Nat was in Vegas?

[bcornell]

...we signed a 3 show deal in Chicago (2011, 2013, 2015).

...it seems that many of the cities that had very popular annual shows have died off for the same reason....


No arguments at all with Chicago - great facility & easy to get to.

Local shows are kaput. They're too inefficient and inconvenient for buyers and sellers. Tristar has pulled out of SF, for example. If they can't run a successful show in an area where millions of people are within one hour's drive, the writing is on the wall.

I like that Las Vegas idea.


Bill

[leadoff4]

I would think Orlando, FL would be a great fit. Not only would it have a great destination(Disney World) for the family. It also has a MLB team within an hour and beaches all around. Seems like a no-brainer to me. I remember a show at the Orange County Convention Center back around 2000/01. Since the Orlando Magic are moving into a new arena, that leaves the Amway Arena as a possible venue.

[rc4157]

Mike - Thanks for keeping us updated, much appreciated.

I know Cleveland still has a poor image, but in reality it isn't the "mistake by the lake" that it once was. People can find things to do in almost any city if they really want to.

I hope to get to Chicago in 2 years after reading the positive comments regarding their show, once you beat the traffic it sounds like a good time!

RC

[Matt]

While I completely understand the family angle, not having too many other attraction/distractions may not be the worst thing as people won't mind spending extra time at the show or coming back for another day.

How's that for spin.

[benjulmag]

To build on what Exhibitman said, I think it is a misnomer to call this show the National if basically it is a ping pong match between Cleveland and Chicago, with an occasional other city thrown in from time to time. Cleveland and Chicago are great baseball towns with I'm sure substantial collecting bases. But unless we want to call this a show just for the dealers and wealthy collectors (who can afford the expense of airfare/lodging, etc.), I think it is being very short-sighted to continually ignore other parts of the country.

[Exhibitman]

You don't think customers would spend some of their card buying budget elsewhere if the Nat was in Vegas?

I seriously doubt it. We collectors have already proven our obsessiveness by traveling to third rate cities with fourth rate facilities just to chase old cardboard. I have yet to hear of anyone dropping their card budget on attractions, food, accommodations, etc., even in the purportedly more interesting locales that have hosted shows in the past (Anaheim, SF, AC, etc.). If anything, the increased attendance from having a first rate destination that our families will want to visit would more than offset any attraction-related losses. I'd bet (pun intended) that some collectors who won't go to some of the cities mentioned as possible hosts will go to Vegas and that some collectors who visit the show for a day or two would extend their stays.

[19cbb]

I would think Orlando, FL would be a great fit.

Here's another vote for Orlando, FL http://www.bradblog.com/Images/SpecialCoverage_VoteFlipping2008.jpg

[Jacklitsch]

Vegas, Baby! That would be soooo choice.

Ditto :cool:

[perezfan]

I love the Las Vegas idea as well... they should give at least some consideration to the West, and the convention center there can surely accomodate.

Another factor nobody has mentioned is airport accessability and the nimber of direct flights. Las Vegas has tons of direct flights, and can accomodate travelers as well as any city. Connecting flights/limited selection of flights are a real pain, and this factor influences whether or not people decide to attend.

Another Western city that hasn't been mentioned much is Denver. Again, it provides easy access from most areas in the U.S. and has a Major League Team (if that's a factor that matters to people).

Lastly, San Diego is a great city and a place that people LOVE to visit. Not sure about their convention center's size, but I know it's a recently new/improved one, and sits right on the beautiful harbor. It's easily walkable to scores of hotels, bars, good restauraunts, the Gaslamp Quarter, etc. Plus, they have a major league baseball team and lots of other nearby attractions for those who make a vacation out of it (Beach, Zoo, Sea World, Tijuana, etc.). You can easily walk from the Convention Center to Petco Park (as well as tons of restaurants and bars) in about 5 minutes. There cannot be a better venue!

Hopefully, it's not asking too much for perhaps 1 out of every 8 shows to be west of the Mississippi?

[Rich Klein]

In reality, the best option (and I know this would upset some people) is the Rosemont facility every year. Good central location; Near Major Highways; near an airport; good public transportation close to the show; you can stay at a hotel to your budget concern and if you park where the train lets off; you can save quite a bit on parking and the walk is really not that bad. Also within a reasonable drive of many mid-west collecting hubs (St Louis; Milwaukee; Detroit,..)

In April; I was up for a family wedding and visited the area around the Baltimore Convention Center. Most of the same positives I mentioned for Chicago is there as well and with any luck we will have Orioles Home Games during the convention. No guarantee on that as the AL schedule is not released until September at the earliest. Also within a reasonable drive of NY City on south (4-5 hours from NYC) and only about 2 hours from Philly. Excellent customer base -- and I'm sure Papa John; MB and Mr. Wilke will do a good job promoting the show. (As an aside; I saw many people at this year's National who obviously had never attended a show before and they had merchandise to sell)

Hey; I'm glad I started this thread. I'm glad we kept it courteous and I'm very appreciative that Mike B came and posted and kept us updated. Mike; you know me for a long time -- if you wish whenever you have important updates I'll be happy to post them to this board for you.

I, personally, still like my hours suggestions (Those can be tweaked) and the varied pricing approach. The varied pricing approach -- can be equated to the Ballpark in Arlington, which is.. I expect and it is now being done, to spend more money for a weekend series versus the Astros; Red Sox or Yankees than I do for a mid-week August series versus the Royals. That does NOT IMHO take $$$ out of the promoter's pockets but helps them better allocate resources and i would rather not see on 2 PM Sunday a dead show; instead, I would like dealers fighting to stay!

At one time; I was told there were only 10 facilities in the country that could handle the National. So, remember; we are still limited in our choices due to logistics.

Gosh; this has been a good thread -- and I'm really looking forward to the next 2 years.

Regards
Rich

[tinkereversandme]

I have certain issues every year with the National. Of course the admission and parking is criminal. I have issues with how sad the National is now, compared to when I started going in the mid-1980's. There is no energy. It's frail and ill. It's a different world of collecting with eBay, auction houses, the death of the current Baseball Cards and such.

I pointed to a card in a dealers cases. A rather common 1950's football semi-star with an SMR of $85. His price? $225! That same card can be found on eBay for about $90-100 and BIN's for around $150.

Since one of the people behind the National is on here, I must say that I understand that it's not your fault, but what these past and present athletes charge for signatures is simply stupid. There is nothing sadder than seeing a big name athlete charge three figures for something, sign like thirty signatures total and then sit there. Leave these guys home. I would prefer a quantity of common guys for $10-15 per who normally don't do many signings than what I saw.

How many times can Jim Brown or Joe Namath or Joe Montana do a show? Geez.

Las Vegas makes too much sense. Convention Capitol of the U.S.

Larry

[Rich Klein]

That is done by the Convention Center. The biggest problem with parking in Cleveland, is unlike Chicago, there is no cheaper outlet. If you wish to walk a bit in Chicago, I belive parking is $3 for the day at the CTA station. If you read my original treatise; my point was on admission charges NOT on parking. Let's focus on what we can change; not what the promoters have no say over.

Here is an example of that; due to union rules at the I/X Center; if you wish to carry out your merchandise; you must use a two wheeler. They will stop you at the door with a four wheeler. The promoters have no control over that and again we learn to live within those rules.

The autographs are also not part of the promoters reach. IIRC; they contract with Tri-Star to bring in autograph guests. Tri-Star does a great job with that and the autographs are for all price levels from nominal to $200+. That is not really an issue either as the autograph flow does not affect the show traffic. And again; another reason why I don't mind the promoters selling MVP or Super MVP tickets; etc. Some of the cheaper autographs become free with the higher end badges and that is fine. To use another ballpark in Arlington analogy; when I go to Rangers games with my friend whose tickets are six rows behind the visitors dugout; we also have the right to enter the gold club. Somone in the bleachers does not have that same option. The cost of the ticket is also much more for the better seat.

Regards
Rich

[terjung]

Here's another vote for Orlando, FL http://www.bradblog.com/Images/SpecialCoverage_VoteFlipping2008.jpg

Another vote for Orlando here as well!

[Reginald Marsh]

Rich is correct that the show could be held in Chi-town every year. The Rosemont is simply the best building in the hobby and there is always a buzz in that place.

I had no complaints about Cleveland and i thought the IX-Center was very easily found from any direction. I thought the Legendary auction was alot of fun to.

Even though alot of the cards were over priced all one had to do was hustle and there were bigtime bargains. One table had cards at 4.00 dollars a piece or 20 for 60 dollars and i was not even going to stop but a 1971 PSA high number 8 was on top of one pile, all of the cards were graded by PSA and i bought 30 PSA 7 to 8 1971 high numbers and alot of other cards for 3.00 bucks a piece and i do not normally fool around with lower end cards so there really was a bargain for everyone.

If anyone stopped by my cases i was practically giving things away, it was almost comical at the ridiculous low prices i quoted just to watch people think if it was a good deal or not.

The National is like any other show where the early bird gets the worm, you have to be there early and know what you are looking for and there are great deals to be had, if you plan on showing up on Saturday and waltzing around most of the great deals are already snatched up.

[slidekellyslide]

In reality, the best option (and I know this would upset some people) is the Rosemont facility every year. Good central location; Near Major Highways; near an airport; good public transportation close to the show; you can stay at a hotel to your budget concern and if you park where the train lets off; you can save quite a bit on parking and the walk is really not that bad. Also within a reasonable drive of many mid-west collecting hubs (St Louis; Milwaukee; Detroit,..)


Regards
Rich

I would go every year if it were in Chicago.

[Brian Weisner]

Me too....
Be well Brian


PS Cubs, Golf, and great food....:)

[Jewish-collector]

I guess I'm in the minority that I really like the National in Cleveland. I just hate that $8 parking fee each day.

[Reginald Marsh]

Alan.....i went to the Baltimore National coin show and parking was 20 dollars per day, get ready for next year because the parking will be expensive.

[Jay Wolt]

I guess I'm in the minority that I really like the National in Cleveland. I just hate that $8 parking fee each day.

Go park in one of the area hotels and take their free shuttle service to & from the IX center ;)

[Rob D.]

Off the top of my head without thinking too hard, in the past year or so I have paid:

$20 a night to park at a hotel in Niagara Falls, Canada

$15 to park at a weeknight Cleveland Indians game

$10 to park at an Ohio State football game

$10 to park at a Columbus Blue Jackets game

$30 a night to park at a hotel in Chicago

$12 to park for about 3 hours at a parking garage in downtown Cincinnati

Complaining about paying $8 in a private parking lot for an event at which you're going to spend 4-8 hours is comical.

If you start saving 4 cents a day, by the time the next National in Cleveland rolls around, you'll have three days of parking covered.

[Jay Wolt]

In june I went to see the new Yankee stadium w/ the wife courtesy of Sarno.
We (not Sarno) stayed in a hotel by the Garden and I parked at the Port Authority right past the Lincoln Tunnel.
The next day headed for home and we parked at the Port about 26 hours, our fee $53

[2dueces]

We find EJM's comments about the East Coast and the plethora of advanced collectors to be an inane. Another “lower class commentary” from the same crowd that elected the government whose economic programs are sure to bankrupt America.

Wealthy, successful people have rights too. The joy of the National is having the opportunity to acquire truly unique items, and exchange collecting experiences with world class collectors.

Although we have not been able to attend the National for the past few years, we enjoyed 16 shows where we had the chance to see Four Base Hits, Texas Tommy's and an Old Judge advertising poster, and countless other rare items.

As for poor, pathetic EJM, when the National is New York City, we will provide him with a job cleaning bathrooms. Perhaps he will get lucky, and clean up after an advanced collector. That may be as close as he ever comes to tasting the joy of owning an ultra rare, high grade baseball card.

Please!!! Your last great President left a $1.3 trillion deficit and you say this administrations economic programs are sure to bankrupt America. If you have another thought on politics, do us all a favor and let it go. Just let it go.

[Ejm1]

Please!!! Your last great President left a $1.3 trillion deficit and you say this administrations economic programs are sure to bankrupt America. If you have another thought on politics, do us all a favor and let it go. Just let it go. Agreed.



Originally Posted by Yankeefan51
We find EJM's comments about the East Coast and the plethora of advanced collectors to be an inane. Another “lower class commentary” from the same crowd that elected the government whose economic programs are sure to bankrupt America.

Wealthy, successful people have rights too. The joy of the National is having the opportunity to acquire truly unique items, and exchange collecting experiences with world class collectors.

Although we have not been able to attend the National for the past few years, we enjoyed 16 shows where we had the chance to see Four Base Hits, Texas Tommy's and an Old Judge advertising poster, and countless other rare items.

As for poor, pathetic EJM, when the National is New York City, we will provide him with a job cleaning bathrooms. Perhaps he will get lucky, and clean up after an advanced collector. That may be as close as he ever comes to tasting the joy of owning an ultra rare, high grade baseball card.


I found out who this is so maybe if I can get off welfare and my probation officer lets me, I will ask for this job in person. In the mean time keep selling your sheet music Bruce.

[Wite3]

San Diego is a fantastic idea. Comic Con is there every year. The size of the convention center is huge. They have two halls that could hold the national if I recall. It is right next to Petco Park, hotels, food, etc. From Comic Con, I was able to walk to my hotel, the Gas Lamp, Petco, the harbor, and Horton Plaza (large shopping mall). Great local transportation and a slew of family places like the world famous San Diego Zoo, Sea World, Mission Bay, Gaslamp, etc. It is an amazing location.

If we cannot have it in Anaheim or Vegas, I definitely vote for San Diego.

Joshua

[Tex]

Just make it a trade show not open to the public, dealers only. It seems the small timer is not a welcome guest.

I agree. The arrogance at trade shows turned me off of them. I just save my pennies and buy a vintage card every once in a while, and I'm not willing to deal with the bloated sticker prices and used car salesman mentality.

[Exhibitman]

If you start saving 4 cents a day, by the time the next National in Cleveland rolls around, you'll have three days of parking covered.

I completely agree; in the overall context of hotel, airfare, admission, food, etc., the cost of parking is a drop in the bucket. Enough whining about the nickels and dimes.

[autograf]

As for parking, spend a day with a car in NYC.....went there with three friends when the National was in Atlantic city. Parked at downtown Athletic club in the am to go to statue of liberty....$30. Parked in Chinatown/Little Italy in a garage for a couple hours......$30. Parked on Hudson around 32nd for rest of day......$10. Probably could have done it a little different and cabbed or subwayed and saved but $70 for the day. $8 is $8. As for the I-X center, it's not THAT bad. They've at least built a huge new bathroom near the front of the center that's nice. Otherwise their bathroom facilities stink. The food stinks at each and every show I've ever been to. People are correct that at Brown convention center in Chicago, you can go out to something close....Giordanos, Gibsons, McDonalds and get back pretty quickly. And the hotel situation is good. In Louisville, Chicago is 4 hours for me, Cleveland 5.5, so I'm cool with any of them. Have been to every national since 1992. Atlanta, St. Louis were also good, close venues to us. Would assume East coast is where the dearth of collectors and dealers are. Ultimately, it'll be where the dealers and promoters decide. Mike Berkus has been great to answer questions and give rationale behind some of the decisions. As some have said, we're addicted and will follow whereever they have it. Vegas would be cool but all the diversions might make it difficult to stay focused!

[Rich Klein]

[QUOTE=autograf;740890] Would assume East coast is where the dearth of collectors and dealers are. Ultimately, it'll be where the dealers and promoters decide. Mike Berkus has been great to answer questions and give rationale behind some of the decisions.

T-Bob -- just playing the Barry S role of grammar/vocabulary host here. Dearth means shortage -- don't you mean -- biggest group.

Rich

[calvindog]

Off the top of my head without thinking too hard, in the past year or so I have paid:

$20 a night to park at a hotel in Niagara Falls, Canada

$15 to park at a weeknight Cleveland Indians game

$10 to park at an Ohio State football game

$10 to park at a Columbus Blue Jackets game

$30 a night to park at a hotel in Chicago

$12 to park for about 3 hours at a parking garage in downtown Cincinnati

Complaining about paying $8 in a private parking lot for an event at which you're going to spend 4-8 hours is comical.

If you start saving 4 cents a day, by the time the next National in Cleveland rolls around, you'll have three days of parking covered.

Thos Somolians can really add up. Did you split the room at least?

[Frank A]

First of all, it is called a National but it has become a regional show. Same locations over and over. Second, the show is to long at 5 days. It's no wonder some dealers pack up early. Move the damn show around the country as it should be and cut it down to 3 or 3 1/2 days.

[Frank A]

I wonder why a city like Knoxville, Tennessee has never been thought of. Easy access from 8 surounding states. 4 hours from Cinci, 3 frm Charlotte and Atlanta. 2 1/2 fron Nashville. Easy access fro Penn. , St louis, Florida and others. They have a large convention center. A NEW AREA. Why not? At least you'd get some new faces in the crowd. Instead its the same old, same old. Wake the hell up.

[Frank A]

Just checked. Knoxville convention center has 500,000 sq. ft. of space. I guess that would be big enough!!!!!!!! Also is an excellent location for familys. Pigeon Forge, and Gatlinburg right up the road is an excellent area for vacation with plenty to do and Dollywood an excellent Disney type park. Minor league ball in the area also. Got to be a hell of a lot better for a family than Chicago or Cleveland.

[Frank A]

More thoughts on Chicago and Cleveland. With all the shows that go on in this area I would think that the dealers would welcome some new areas for the National. New blood is needed in any business and theres none left in that area. The people with resources will travel to wherever the national is. The people in the current area are the same people over and over. I would bet that this years show was not that great and it's not only because of the economy. You need fresh blood.

[mberkus]

Just a quick note to consider. I hear the same issues that are being bounced around on the thread from our National dealers and our Board of Directors, so the questions and suggestions are not new but still worthy of listening to. It would be impossible to satisfy everyone, just not possible. Families traveling to the National have totally different needs than individual collectors. We tried to work out packages in Anaheim to Disneyland, Knotts, Angel games, etc. but the groups that we did our deals with were totally disappointed with the turnout of response and do not care to work with us anymore. Response was minimal and we were advised to just let those that want to see sights, booked their tickets or times on their own. It became apparent to us that we need to concentrate on our show rather than outside venues. We do try to include all different price hotels in our block of rooms and we usually know the areas well enough to suggest food and entertainment to those that ask but few attendees ask. As for smaller cities, i.e. Knoxville, two problems exist. First, the total amount of exhibit space advertised on their website is 120,000 sq ft. This is on the first floor only, additional floors have a combination of 250,000 sq ft but broken up. We cannot house a National in that small of a facility and certainly not in broken up space and different floors. Second issue is population. We expect at least 50% of our attendance to be of a local nature, within 1 hour drive to the facility. That means that a smaller base population could mean much smaller attendance. My life would be threatened by our dealer base if I made that mistake.

Trust me on a couple of fronts. After 30 years of the National, I am somewhat familiar with the primary issues of hosting a show. The following examples are listed by priority to us, as promoters. 1) facility - must be all on 1 floor with 300,000sq ft min. 2) decorator charge - Cleveland leads in permitting dealer easy set up, that is the absolute primary reason for our repeated visits. We pay the union/decorator $45 per dealer, upfront, to turn their backs on union rules. We do not pass this charge onto the dealer and we pay it for the entire room, every booth, regardless whether the dealer uses the service or not. It is a flat fee to us and run anywhere from $23k to $28K total. Without this, dealers would pay hundreds to wait inline with their inventories and have union workers deliver the stock to each booth. 3) is local population. We would like at least 15,000 local people to join us at the show. We have a local ad and marketing budget of $50,000.00 just to encourage the sports person to either come to buy items or sell what they may have been sitting on for years. 4) local expenses to our out of towners. This includes hotel, food, parking, etc. fees that we try to keep reasonable. 5) hours of the show. We know that 2-3 days is plenty for local attendees but persons who fly in or drive a great distance want as much value for their time as possible. Also dealers need to have a full slate of hours open, to guarantee a strong financial return on their investment. We could hardly expect a VIP attendee to pay $119 for the VIP package and only have 3 days of the show, less autograph tickets, or special product sets. Also, dealers do leave early on Sunday! This is a double edge sword to us. We do not want to impose sanctions on our dealer base. We are not in the police business and the more rules we impose the more problems we all face. Our promoter team has taken it's lumps for allowing dealers to leave early. We have to close our admission booths down at least 3 hours before we are officially closed to not cheat any attendees out of their time on the show and if some booths are empty. This results in a financial loss to us with about an average of 1000 or more attendees come into the show for free. What some dealers don't realize is that many large sales have been recorded by the dealers who stay until the end. But, the bottom line of responsibility, is our job. If we put 10,000 customers on the floor at 4:40pm on Sunday, dealers would stay. We just can't find that formula to gather consumer interest after 2-3pm. We continue to try.

Well, there you have it. The instant guide for promoting a National. On one hand, there is a ton of improvement that constantly needs to be reviewed. On the other hand, we must have done one or two things right, next year in Baltimore will be our 31st annual National. We have weathered the downswing in collecting, the negative press articles, bad economies, loss of local shows and collecting base, and even the attitudes of convention centers who do not want our business. As I mentioned before, we are taking serious looks at Las Vegas, Boston, St. Louis, and anywhere on the West Coast that comes close to matching the above priorities. Baltimore is getting a very strong and positive reaction by our hobby and that is a very good sign. Sometimes it's just up to attitude that can make a difference in how succesful our show is.

Anyway, keep the passion, without it we have no hobby. Even if it's in the form of a complaint. I have grown a couple layers of thick skin over the last 30 years and can handle a lot, just as long as the National survives.

Regards,

Mike Berkus

[Frank A]

Sorry Mike, I don't buy it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with dealers on more than one floor. In fact I think the dealers of early stuff would like it better if the new stuff guys were on a different floor. I think the buyers would like it better also. it would make thier search time less. As far as area with easy access Knoxville is as easy or easier than anywhere you have a National. Also the place is large enough for autyograph signings to be away from the dealers floors. Sorry Mike but I don't agree with you at all. Frank

[mberkus]

Hello Frank,

Sorry but you could not be more wrong. The last time I ran a show on two different floor was in 1992, Opryland Hotel. The dealers all complained. The ones on the 1st floor thought that the dealers on the second floor got better traffic and the ones on the second floor thought the dealers on the 1st floor got all the traffic. Double set of ticket takes, double set of security, double set of management needs, load in, etc. Had to refund $35K of dealer tables to satisfy complaints and have the hotel comp 40 room nights. It was close to a riot. Bet you can't get 20 dealers from the National to agree with you. Plus, if you do some checking, you will find you are wrong about the Knoxville CC. Get facts straight first, then complain.

Mike

[Leon]

Sorry Mike, I don't buy it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with dealers on more than one floor. In fact I think the dealers of early stuff would like it better if the new stuff guys were on a different floor. I think the buyers would like it better also. it would make thier search time less. As far as area with easy access Knoxville is as easy or easier than anywhere you have a National. Also the place is large enough for autyograph signings to be away from the dealers floors. Sorry Mike but I don't agree with you at all. Frank

Frank- this is why this board is good. You can disagree with anyone and give your opinion why you disagree. This argument reminds me a lot, but on a much much smaller scale, of managing this board. What happens is that over time I (and Mike B on the National) get very accustomed to hearing the other sides of the argument why, or why not, something should be done. We (and I am not really speaking for Mike but he will probably agree) have to make the best decision for the masses. I have about a third of the experience of running this board (and being on it) as Mike does at running a National show. His reasoning is tried and true, to try to appease the largest numbers of dealers and collectors. We absolutely KNOW we will not please everyone. It just isn't possible. We can try as hard as we want but as long as humans are involved we know it's an impossibility. I appreciate Mike coming on the board and explaining a lot of the reasoning that goes into picking a venue for the National. It's certainly not as easy as it might sound. As a pseudo-dealer/auctioneer and collector extraordinaire :), I think they do a fine job. WE could have the show in the New Mexico desert and I would be happy. For me it's all about having a 5 day party with my collecting friends. I absolutely love it...take care now and please keep voicing good, bad and indifferent opinions. It's the only way we can evolve and continue the vitality of the hobby. best regards

ps....by the looks of the local workers I think I see a niche to be filled, for dentists, in Cleveland. I thought I was in the Appalachians.

[Frank A]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mike just say that you are happy with having the show in the same area every year rather than give me a line of bullshit. 500,000 sq. ft. is 500,000 sq. ft. Don't insult me with some stupid remark. I CAN READ. If you insist on Chicago every other year STOP calling your SHOW ( and thats what it is) a NATIONAL. IT is nothing more than a regional state show. Complacency will however be the end of your show. Look around at the businesses going under from it. Yours will be no different. People are getting sick of the same old, same old. Wake up.

[HRBAKER]

"ps....by the looks of the local workers I think I see a niche to be filled, for dentists, in Cleveland. I thought I was in the Appalachians."

No Leon, no stills in plain sight.

and Mike, thanks for all of your efforts. I had a great time in Cleveland, Chicago, or wherever. If you have it, they will come.

[Frank A]

LEON; Absolutely!! You would travel to do the National wherever it is. And so would most big dealers. However with the show in the same place all the time it has left its status behind. There are other collectors in other cities who would like to go and spend some money at this show. I did not go this year because of ths $600 it would cost me to go. Also it gives dealers in other areas a chance to set up. I do not like the way it is now set up, it needs to advance to the next level. Frank

[Leon]

LEON; Absolutely!! You would travel to do the National wherever it is. And so would most big dealers. However with the show in the same place all the time it has left its status behind. There are other collectors in other cities who would like to go and spend some money at this show. I did not go this year because of ths $600 it would cost me to go. Also it gives dealers in other areas a chance to set up. I do not like the way it is now set up, it needs to advance to the next level. Frank

I hardly think of me as a big dealer but I have been called worse. Now, if we are talking circumference then I am getting bigger all of the time. I too would like a change of venue but it's just not that easy. I absolutely can guarantee Mike, and the other directors on the board, want to do what is best for the show. There is not one thing that you have thought of that Mike and crew hasn't discussed a hundred times. I very much trust he knows what is best and will continue to do what is deemed best. Please try not to get too personal too. You can throw the BS flag, I do it frequently, but please stay courteous. We are all friends and collectors here..I haven't seen anything over the top but just a friendly reminder..... thanks again.....

[mberkus]

OK Frank, I see that the passion is still alive. Dollywood, here we come! I will recommend to the board that we take the show to a new level of 3 floors, 2 or 3 days of admission, regional dealers taking priority over 31 year table holders, and minor league ball at it's finest. We will probably all be able to stay at your house, given the high points of the "new Regional" convention.

Just kidding Frank, keep your sense of humor and come to Baltimore. I'll give you a free weeklong pass.

Regards,

Mike

[Frank A]

BAKER; Your remark about the people in the Appalachain's was uncalled for. Obviosly they are much better people than you.

[Ejm1]

"ps....by the looks of the local workers I think I see a niche to be filled, for dentists, in Cleveland. I thought I was in the Appalachians."

As far as that statement goes, Some of the dealers were some of the grosser folks there. Bad teeth and obesity are everywhere so that statement is null and void of truth.

[tothrk]

Q: What do you get if you lock 14 Cleveland natives in the same room?
A: A full set of teeth.

If you want to increase attendance on Sunday, which I guess is family day, give people more of a reason to come out. Are there any autograph guests on Sunday afternoon? Maybe 6-8 autograph guests which would appeal to collectors of new stuff as well as vintage collectors would help. Maybe something could be worked out with the parking & admission for Sunday? If all else fails, hot chicks in bikini's will usually draw a crowd.

[Leon]

"ps....by the looks of the local workers I think I see a niche to be filled, for dentists, in Cleveland. I thought I was in the Appalachians."

As far as that statement goes, Some of the dealers were some of the grosser folks there. Bad teeth and obesity are everywhere so that statement is null and void of truth.

I admit I am overweight....I like to eat. Sorry, I was just calling it like I saw it. Sorry if offended anyone. I will try not to say what I think anymore....based on being there. best regards

edited to add that the folks working there were all very nice.....my comment was solely based on a few individuals needing a few more teeth. There are worse things in life....

[calvindog]

Mike, you make good points. The show is called the "National" because it brings dealers and collectors from all over the country once a year. And while I'm sure Knoxville is a swell place, I just don't see it as a National venue for the reasons Mike mentioned.

[tbob]

[QUOTE=autograf;740890] Would assume East coast is where the dearth of collectors and dealers are. Ultimately, it'll be where the dealers and promoters decide. Mike Berkus has been great to answer questions and give rationale behind some of the decisions.

T-Bob -- just playing the Barry S role of grammar/vocabulary host here. Dearth means shortage -- don't you mean -- biggest group.

Rich

Rich- You might ask Tom B. he wrote that not me.
Tbob
P.S. I do know where dearth means BTW :D

[Ejm1]

Can't we all just get along?? Really....we all do the same thing, just on diffrent scales as far as spending and does it really matter where we come from? People that don't collect think we are Dorks, Nerds, Losers anyway so lets try to keep it together. Have the National anywhere it needs to be. Everytown will have pluses and minuses. Now I have to finish my 1990 Fleer baseball set. (Joke).

[Jim VB]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mike just say that you are happy with having the show in the same area every year rather than give me a line of bullshit. 500,000 sq. ft. is 500,000 sq. ft. Don't insult me with some stupid remark. I CAN READ. If you insist on Chicago every other year STOP calling your SHOW ( and thats what it is) a NATIONAL. IT is nothing more than a regional state show. Complacency will however be the end of your show. Look around at the businesses going under from it. Yours will be no different. People are getting sick of the same old, same old. Wake up.


Frank,

You couldn't be more wrong. It's called The National because it attracts dealers and collectors from a nationwide audience, not because it moves around the whole country.

The International Consumer Electronics Show is held every January in Las Vegas. Has been there since 1978. No one is Oslo is bitching that they don't get a shot.


I think the ability to have the entire show on one floor is vital. Splitting us customers is never a good idea. Some of those customers of shiny stuff might be captivated by seeing vintage cards. Also, having the autograph signers close is important. They are there to attract people to the show. If you move people to another location, you defeat that purpose.

I think Mike and his team do a great job or organizing the show. If you don't, I have a suggestion for you. Go to the people at the Knoxville Convention Center and sign a contract to lock it up for a week. Convince some dealers to come and set up. Spend a couple of bucks advertising to collectors and run your own show.

You will soon find out it isn't as easy as you think. Coming on a public message board, using foul language to attack the event organizer, when you clearly have no concept of what's involved is uncalled for.

Disagree all you want, but right now, there aren't five people in the country more knowledgeable about organizing this show. You're not one of those five.

[Frank A]

Didn't ask for your 2 cents and don't need them. Your whole post was about the dealers and promoters. Sorry, BUT THE BUYERS MAKE THE SHOW. No buyers, no show.

[Jim VB]

Didn't ask for your 2 cents and don't need them. Your whole post was about the dealers and promoters. Sorry, BUT THE BUYERS MAKE THE SHOW. No buyers, no show.


I have never needed your permission to offer my opinion.


After you get your own show up and running, maybe you could start your own message board. That way you'll never have to deal with dissenting opinions.


And by the way, keeping the dealers on the same floor is about BUYERS, not dealers.

[calvindog]

Didn't ask for your 2 cents and don't need them. Your whole post was about the dealers and promoters. Sorry, BUT THE BUYERS MAKE THE SHOW. No buyers, no show.

Frank, I think the National is usually held in cities with larger metro areas because there is a greater likelihood of attendance and participation in those places. Knoxville just doesn't cut it.

[Kawika]

Take a swing at C Dog, Frank.

[Frank A]

LOL Just venting my opinion. Not looking for a fight. I'm to old.

[Jim VB]

http://www.knoxvilleconventioncenter.com/floor_plans/floor_plans.php


Looks like Mike was correct and not feeding you a line of BS, as you claimed. I think you owe him an apology.

[buymycards]

I love the Vegas idea. Lots to do. Great food. Cheap flights and hotels. Combine the national with a vacation. Sounds like fun.

Rick

[calvindog]

Vegas would be awesome. Problem is, would anyone show up at the National?

[Reginald Marsh]

Vegas is a horrible idea because gambling would kill card sales LMAO. People would lose so much cash at the tables that cards would just sit. Anyone who thinks a major card show should be held in Knoxville Tn has probably drunk to much moonshine in one's life. Not that i dislike Tn because i lived in Nashville for 3 years but no way is a card show going to fly.

I really do not see what the fuss is all about, Cleveland was fine and finding the show was very simple. I think Baltimore will be a hit though because the building has a better layout.

[Frank A]

NO NO NO NO NO; Moonshine keeps your sinuses clear so you get more oxygen to the brain. Nothing wrong with that.

[Rich Klein]

[QUOTE=Rich Klein;740896]

Rich- You might ask Tom B. he wrote that not me.
Tbob
P.S. I do know where dearth means BTW :D

All you T.B. types sound alike to me -- sorry about that -- that's way I should not become the Barry S English Prof on this board :)

And for Frank A; I do understand and sympathize with your points; when I started this thread -- I understood there are no perfect solutions but with my experience in the hobby I just wanted to make a few points. We've had some twists and turns and kept this mostly positive and recieved some fantastic comments from Mike B about what is needed to run a National (Plus he's offered you a full pass for next year -- as long as you get to Baltimore :) )

OK; let me conclude for now with a few pts

1) My instinct from walking around the area of the Baltimore Convention Center is that this is a very solid location although it will cost the promoters a few more sheckels than some of the other venues. They will do a good job promoting the show locally for the National is both a LOCAL and a NATIONAL show. When I did the Favorite Player Contest for BHN at the 1988 Atlantic City National and talked to Frank Barning later, he told me that the National was a bigger, better and wider local show. The National is still exactly that, with great dealers; a nice flock of collectors and hopefully a good regional crowd to full out the arena.

2) My biggest issues are something the promoters are very aware of; which is the dearth of people who attend and stay on Sunday. That, includes the dealers -- which is why I suggested varied admission pricing based on what day/days you came to the show, how many hours you wanted to be there, etc. They want Sunday to be better; I want Sunday to be better,. etc.

3) I also wanted to focus on what we can change. We can not change the parking fees to attend so guess what; I did not bring that up. I want us to focus on what we can suggest on collectors/dealers; not what we can't suggest.

You realize we've drawn over 7K views to this thread -- so as Mike B has said; not only have the posters shown passion but also the lurkers are very interested.

4) Let's keep this courteous. Some of the worst nights of my life have been spent in the pre-1994 National Business Meeting. For those of you who remember those; they had a tendency to end about 2 AM. I really don't want to return to those days folks. Mike deserves respect for making the statements he does on this board.

5) I am very much pro-National and pro shows. There is something special about seeing the cards before you buy/sell them!

Anyway -- thanks to everyone who posted/read or learned a lot about our hobby. I learned a lot and I thought I understood about the mechanics of the National -- and there is so much more to learn.

Regards
Rich

[mberkus]

OK, there have been some very passionate comments made and some very complimentary statements as well. I thank Jim, Rich, Leon, and others who truly care about the National and attend with a love of this hobby. Many issues concerning the show are just not known by so many people. I think that most of you, once explained, understand what can and cannot be done. All sites of the National are voted on by the dealers. No one, myself included, can select a National location without the dealers voting. Anything that happens at our show, booth fees, site selection, expenses, decorating, etc. are approved by the Board of Directors (which I am not a member), before they are put in place. Our show is owned by the dealers and everything is decided by the dealers. Once the show location is approved, my team (John Broggi, Bob Wilke, and myself) are directed to operate the show under the terms laid out by the Board of Directors. We do not make these decisions on our own. It truly matters not to me where the dealers choose our show location, I am consumed by creating the marketing, advertising, and partnerships so desperately needed by the National, to make thing work best. My role is the same regardless of the site. For those of you who think I make all these decisions, check with the Board of Directors and you will find the truth. Truth be told, I am the least political of anyone. I just want the show to survive. It is a matter of pride. No one has more fun at a National than me. I live for it.

Most dealers and collectors do not care about the details of the show. They just want it right, when they get there. They want the booth selection that they picked out ready, tables, sign, and chairs. They want the show to open on time and have no cares what the fire marshall might desire or demand. I don't blame them! They pay the freight of the show and that means I work for them. Many of the participants of the National have no idea what we have discussed so far on this thread and could care less. As Rich said " the old dealer meetings lasted until 2am". Today, our dealer meetings last 15 minutes. Things run smooth because both the Board of Directors and our promotion group are on the same track. Keep it simple and do it right. If you want a scary moment, walk into a 500,000 sq ft facility 2 days before setup and take a hard look at an huge empty area. Then, worry about filling it up with dealers, attendees, corporate sponsors, and staffing. That always gets to me before each National. No matter how many shows I have done, I always worry that this one will fail. It is what keeps me honest and working hard.

Whether it is Frank wanting Knoxville or anyone else with ideas that differ from what we are doing currently, I am always interested in hearing about it. But, once the music starts, just like a ballgame, it is too late for talking we have a show to run. Aside from seems like my complaining, I wouldn't have it any other way. I love being part of the show and hope that some of the information I have passed on is helpful to you. I know that without your participation, we would be far worse off. We need all of you to care, imput ideas, and most of all, be at the show.

Good luck to everyone for the next year and if I can be of any help, my email is mberkus@aol.com. I truly enjoy hearing from you. Hope everyone can make it to Baltimore. Most importantly, stay well, none of us are young!

Best regards,

Mike

[Willstk]

As a lurker living in Baltimore,looking forward to my 1st National, how much complaining do I have to do to get my free pass?

Can't wait until next year - and will be offering any help I can to the board for surviving in and enjoying Baltimore.

Will

[mberkus]

Dear Lurker,

I will take care of anyone who has posted before "this post". I appreciate all the comments so I have made a list of those who took the time to chat and if anyone who has posted on Rich's thread prior to this last post of mine, wants to attend, email me at mberkus@aol.com. Sorry, to those who I cannot include, you are still welcome to attend but unless the Balt CC decides to let me have their facility for free, we need admissions!

See you in Balt.

Mike