T206 PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......UPDATED

[tedzan]

Survey......part I

During the Red Cobb survey, many of you were surprised to see how many T206 red Cobb's with the very rare PIEDMONT 460 Fact. 42
back that were reported. Of the 301 samples, 13 were P 460/42 cards.

The other 5 major stars in the T206 350/460 series are Cobb (bat off shoulder), Johnson (pitching), Lajoie (bat), Matty (dark cap), and
CYoung (glove). Show or tell us of your P 460/42 cards of these five Subjects ?

I will start this with my Johnson......

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bancroftjohnsongriffith.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bbancroftjohnsongriffith.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

SURVEY......8/3/09


Cobb (bat)............0

Johnson (pitch)......1

Lajoie (bat)...........0

Matty (dk cap).......0

CYoung (glove).......0




Survey......part II

Furthermore, in the prior P 460/42 survey 60 subjects (of the 61) in the 350/460 series were confirmed (Tinker is still unconfirmed).

However, only the following 12 subjects (of the 48) in the 460-only series have been confirmed.

I will give $10....to any one here who can add a new 460-only card with a P 460/42 back to this list? ?


Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Thanks....once again for participating in this survey.


TED Z

[B O'Brien]

Ted,
I have a P42 Young right now. I have also sold a Johnson and Black Matty to a non board reader over the past few months.
Thanks,
Bob

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

I have:

Cobb (bat)
Johnson (pitch)
CYoung (glove)

I can't add any to the 460 Only group.

Best Regards,
Craig

[cfc1909]

I have Lajoie bat and Cy Young and also a M. Brown

[rebelsart]

Hi Ted,
Missed you in Cleveland, hope you had a good show.

Here are the Piedmont factory 42 cards I have (nothing new to add to your list):

BENDER (NO TREES) PHILA. AMER.
COBB, RED, DETROIT
CHASE (BLUE) N.Y. AMER.
CRAWFORD, BAT, DETROIT
JENNINGS, 1 HAND, DETROIT
JENNINGS, 2 HANDS, DETROIT
LATHAM N.Y. NAT'L.
MCINTYRE BKLN & CHICAGO
MULLIN, BATTING, DETROIT
OLEARY, HOK, DETROIT
OLEARY, HOK, DETROIT
PFEISTER CHICAGO NAT'L.
WILLETTS, DETROIT
WILTSE (CAP) N.Y. NAT'L.

Regards,
Art M.

[ethicsprof]

no fancy HOFer 42 for me, Ted, just a Downey batting to match my T3.

best,

barry

[Dustanh1]

The only factory 42 I have is a Danny Murphy batting.

[martin neal]

Ted,

I have the following. Unfortunately, nothing new.

Davis (Harry)
Donlin (bat)
Downey (bat)
Griffith (bat)
Konetchy (missed grounder)
Lajoie (bat)
Sweeney (Jeff)
White (pitching)
Wiltse (pitching)

[tedzan]

Thanks for all your inputs. I will post an updated tally later today.


Here are my cards with the PIEDMONT 460/42 backs......

Baker
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (portrait-blue)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Latham
Rucker (throwing)
Schaefer (Washington)

Let's have some more inputs on this subject; and, especially if any of you
can add a new card to the list of 12 confirmed 460-only series' cards.


T-Rex TED

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

I presently own the following P42s:

Chase (Trophy)
Lajoie (Bat)
Manning (Pitching)

I previously owned the following: Murphy (Bat), Pelty (Vertical)

Scot

[tedzan]

Reprising the "Lonely 12" subjects that have been confirmed with the Piedmont 460/42 back.

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I refer to these 12 cards as the "lonely 12" because after years of tracking P 460/42 backs, I think there
was a very limited printing of the P 460/42 backs with respect to the 460-only series.


Here's the list of the remaining 36 cards in the 460-only series that have NOT been confirmed......

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bescher (hands in air)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Camnitz (hands at side)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (St Louis-ball)
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (batting)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat


Remember that I will give you $10 for every one of these 36 that you report with a Piedmont 460/42 back.

Thanks for taking the time to check-out your T206's.

TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
Here's a list of my 42's:

Baker
Cobb Red
Cobb Bat off
Cobb Bat off
Conroy Bat
Conroy Bat
Crawford Bat
Kleinow Boston
Konetchy Glove low
Latham
Latham
Manning pitch
Mathewson Dcap
Mathewson Dcap
McIntyre Brook& chicago
Overall Throwing
Pelty Vertical
Seymour Throw
Smith Chi& Bos
Snodgrass catch
Sweeney Throw
Wagner right
White Chi

I may have a few more.... Check in later.

Be well Brian

[tedzan]

You are the King, big guy. So tell me, why is LATHAM more abundantly seen with a P 460/42 back than most other cards ?

You have two....and the one I have, I got from you. Also, I know of at least two other Latham's.


TED Z

[tedzan]

PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/5/09


Cobb (bat)............3

Johnson (pitch)......3

Lajoie (bat)...........3

Matty (dark cap)....3

CYoung (glove)......3


Thanks guys for all your inputs. I know this is a very tough T206 back....but, if we can
get as many as 13 inputs of the Red Cobb portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back.....
then I'm sure we can get some more inputs on these 5 cards.


TED Z

[Exhibitman]

Add Bradley and Chase to the pop list

[Kotton King]

I owned a Johnson (Piedmont 42), but sold it several months back. It was in a PSA 2 holder:

(Edited to add that I think it might be the one that Craig posted about, but I don't remember off hand).

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk264/crazylocomerk3/SOLD%20or%20Traded%20CARDS/1909-11T206JohnsonWalterPiedmontFac.jpg

[White Borders]

Yep, the Johnson that Eric posted above is the one I now own and listed. He's been freed of his PSA tomb and now resides next to his Polar Bear backed twin in a nice binder. :D

[toppcat]

That Big Train is a helluva nice two-geez!

[sreader3]

Ted,

I think it is a statistical fluke that more copies of Latham P42 have surfaced in this survey than the other 460-onlys. All 12 of the "lonely 460-only" subjects are tougher with P42 than the 350/460s are with that back, in my opinion. I believe I saw one Latham P42 on eBay in the five years that I religously tracked T206 auctions (2003-2008).

And where, oh where, is that Tinker (Bat Off)!

Best,

Scot

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
I made a mistake.... I only have 1 Latham.... As I forgot I sent you one as a gift. Be well Brian


PS I think I have 4 more 42's in my new cards stack, so I'll add them over the weekend.

[tedzan]

BRIAN W

The only 460-only PIEDMONT 460/42 cards that I have are Schaefer and Latham (thanks to you).
I have been trying to acquire the other 10, but cannot find them. Are they really that tough ?

When I started putting together my first T206 set in the early 1980's, I never gave this back any
consideration. You and Art M. have been tracking these P460/42 backs longer than most of us.
Have you ever seen any other 460-only subjects with the P460/42 back besides the 12 that I've
listed here ?

Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Final call for any additional P460/42 backs on the 5 major stars in the 350/460 series.

Also, final call for Tinker (bat off shoulder) with a P460/42 back.

Furthermore, regarding the "Lonely 12" from the 460-only series....it looks like this dozen
doesn't have a cousin ?

Check-out your T206 collections and you might just be surprised to find a Piedmont 460
Factory 42 that you didn't realize you had.


TED Z

[Mike (18colt)]

Good afternoon, Ted.

I have Young, glove. See scans of front/back below.

Mike (18colt)

[tedzan]

Mike.....thanks for your input. And, a Lajoie was reported from a Net54 reader.

PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/9/09


Cobb (red portrait).....13

Cobb (bat).................3

Johnson (pitch)...........3

Lajoie (bat)................4

Matty (dark cap).........3

CYoung (glove)...........4


Thanks guys for all your inputs. I know this is a very tough T206 back....but, if we can
get as many as 13 inputs of the Red Cobb portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back.....
then I'm sure we can get some more inputs on these 6 cards.


TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted,
I haven't had a chance to check for more 42's, but I doubt I have any "new" ones...
As far as the 460 only cards go.... I don't know... I picked up my Kleniow about 10 years ago, and my Smith's and Latham's within the last 8 years. Most were part of larger finds with more T205 42's than T206's...

Be well Brian

[tedzan]

Cobb (bat) and Johnson were reported from Net54 readers.

PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/11/09


Cobb (red portrait).....13

Cobb (bat).................4

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................4

Matty (dark cap).........3

CYoung (glove)...........4


I know this is a very tough T206 back......but, if we can get as many as 13 inputs
of the Red Cobb portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back.....then I'm sure we can
get some more inputs on these 6 cards.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Two new inputs were reported from Net54 readers.....Matty and CYoung


PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/13/09


Cobb (red portrait).....13

Cobb (bat).................4

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................4

Matty (dark cap).........4

CYoung (glove)...........5


I know this is a very tough T206 back......but, if we can get as many as 13 inputs
of the Red Cobb portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back.....then I'm sure we can
get some more inputs on these 6 cards.


TED Z

[obcmac]

I have the Matty dark cap with a f.42 back...and picked up the Seymour f.42 in Cleveland.

Mac

[tedzan]

Thanks Mac

I will add your Matty to the list in the next update.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Two new inputs were reported, one from Mac and the other from a Net54 reader.....Matty and Lajoie.


PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/14/09


Cobb (red portrait).....13

Cobb (bat).................4

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................5

Matty (dark cap).........5

CYoung (glove)...........5


I know this is a very tough T206 back......but, if we can get as many as 13 inputs
of the Red Cobb portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back.....then I'm sure we can
get some more inputs on these 6 cards.


TED Z

[tedzan]

OK guys and gals, here again are the "Lonely 12" in the 460-only Series that've been found with the Piedmont 460,
Factory 42 back.
There are 36 other Subjects in this last series of the T206 issue that have yet to be confirmed with this rare back.

Confirmed Subjects
--------------------
Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


One more go around....check out your T206 collections and let's see if we find any more 460-only series cards that
have the Piedmont 460/42 back ?

It's my opinion, that these 12 were the only cards printed by American Litho. with this back in the 460-only series.
So who will be the first of you to prove me wrong ?

Remember, I'm giving out $10 for every new 460-only Subject that is reported here. The list of the unconfirmed 36
cards is found in Post #11 in this thread.


TED Z

[sreader3]

Ted,

Thanks for this research.

I think these "lonely 12" are much scarcer than the 350/460s with Piedmont 42--except Kleinow and Smith who are probably as common with Piedmont 42 as other 350/460 RPs.

I would love to prove you wrong and collect my Alexander Hamilton--but I don't think I will be able.

Scot

[deadballera]

I have a Rucker in the 350/460 fact. 42

[tedzan]

This survey is in its 3rd week and two more new inputs have been reported from Net54 readers......
Cobb (bat) and Lajoie (bat)


PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/19/09


Cobb (red portrait).....13

Cobb (bat).................5

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................6

Matty (dark cap).........5

CYoung (glove)...........5


I know this is a very tough T206 back....but, if we can get as many as 13 inputs of the Red Cobb
portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back....then I am sure we can get some more inputs on these
5 additional stars.


TED Z

[tedzan]

This survey is in its 4th week and one more new input has been reported from a Net54 reader......
a Matty.



PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/25/09


Cobb (red portrait).....13

Cobb (bat).................5

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................6

Matty (dark cap).........6

CYoung (glove)...........5


I know this is a very tough T206 back....but, if we can get as many as 13 inputs of the Red Cobb
portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back....then I am sure we can get some more inputs on these
5 additional stars.

Very interesting......so far, these results are confirming what we had expected to see......
that the Red Cobb with the Piedmont 460/42 back is a DOUBLE-PRINT.

We will continue this survey a little longer to see if this is indeed so ?


TED Z

[cfc1909]

Just reread this thread- I too have a Latham

Picked up my Lajoie from Tony and his wife at a Fort Washington show and the Young and M. Brown were some of my first ebay purchases-early 2000 maybe 2002. If memory serves me right the M. Brown was a $125 BIN.

[sando69]

hey ted-
in case you hadn't seen the raw red cobb 460/42 that sold this morning on ebay, here is the item #220468763520 for verification.
as always, thank you for your contributions!

[tedzan]

I was wondering when another Red Cobb was going to finally show up. And, there is no mistaking this one for a previously
reported red Cobb with a PIEDMONT 460/42 back.

On the first day (4/2/09) of the Red Cobb survey, there were 6 - P460/42 inputs. By the end of the first week there were
a total of 10 inputs. After 2 weeks there was a total of 12 inputs. Then it took 3 1/2 months to get the 13th input.

Thanks to you, we now have a 14th example.

These P460/42 red Cobb's are turning out to be an "exponential trip"....I expect the 15th red Cobb to be reported 6 months
from now :)


TED Z

[tedzan]

This survey is in its 4th week and two more new inputs has been reported from Net54er's......
Red Cobb and CYoung



PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 8/27/09


Cobb (red portrait).....14

Cobb (bat).................5

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................6

Matty (dark cap).........6

CYoung (glove)...........6


I know this is a very tough T206 back....but, if we can get as many as 14 inputs of the Red Cobb
portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back....then I am sure we can get some more inputs on these
5 additional stars.

Very interesting......so far, these results are confirming what we had expected to see......
that the Red Cobb with the Piedmont 460/42 back is a DOUBLE-PRINT.

We will continue this survey a little longer to see if this is indeed so ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

This survey is in its 5th week and 2 more new inputs have been reported from Net54 readers......

Lajoie and Matty

I will post the updated tally later, as a 3rd input has been reported....but not yet confirmed.


TED Z

[tedzan]

This survey is in its 5th week and 2 more new inputs (Lajoie and Matty) have been reported by Net54 readers......



PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 9/2/09


Cobb (red portrait).....14

Cobb (bat).................5

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................7

Matty (dark cap).........7

CYoung (glove)...........6


I know this is a very tough T206 back....but, if we can get as many as 14 inputs of the Red Cobb
portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back....then I am sure we can get some more inputs on these
5 additional stars.

Very interesting......so far, these results are confirming what we had expected to see......
that the Red Cobb with the Piedmont 460/42 back is a DOUBLE-PRINT.

We will continue this survey a little longer to see if this is indeed so ?


TED Z

[sreader3]

Ted,

Great research. I have suspected for a while that Cobb (Red Portrait) was a double print with Piedmont 42. If true, it may well be that Cobb (Red Portait) was also double-printed with other backs. It is easy to imagine a sheet with Cobb (Red Portrait) double-printed on the front that was printed with several different backs, Piedmont 42 being one.

Scot

[tedzan]

Reprising the "Lonely 12" subjects that have been confirmed with the Piedmont 460/42 back. Please check
the 36-card list posted here and see if you have any of them with this rare PIEDMONT back.

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I refer to these 12 cards as the "lonely 12" because after years of tracking P460/42 backs, It looks like there
was a very limited printing of the P460/42 backs with respect to the 460-only series.


Here's the list of the remaining 36 cards in the 460-only series that have NOT been confirmed......

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bescher (hands in air)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Camnitz (hands at side)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (St Louis-ball)
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (batting)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat


Thanks for taking the time to check-out your T206's.

TED Z

[tedzan]

This survey is in its 7th week and 2 more new inputs (Red Cobb and CYoung) have been reported
by Net54 readers......



PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 survey......Updated 9/17/09


Cobb (red portrait).....15

Cobb (bat).................5

Johnson (pitch)...........4

Lajoie (bat)................7

Matty (dark cap).........7

CYoung (glove)...........7


I know this is a very tough T206 back....but, if we can get as many as 15 inputs of the Red Cobb
portrait with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back....then I am sure we can get some more inputs on these
5 additional stars.

Very interesting......so far, these results are confirming what we had expected to see......
that the Red Cobb with the Piedmont 460/42 back is a DOUBLE-PRINT.

We will continue this survey a little longer to see if this is indeed so ?

HELP ANYONE.....we are also still looking for a Tinker (bat off shoulder) with a P460/42 back


TED Z

[tedzan]

I am reprising the "Lonely 12" subjects (460-only series cards) that have been confirmed with the PIEDMONT 460/42 back.
After several years of looking, a new PIEDMONT 460/42 card was found this weekend at the Philly show....Schlei (portrait).
This subject is from the 460-only series

Updated list of 460-only PIEDMONT 460/42 cards......

Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I refer to these 12 cards as the "Lonely 12", because after years of tracking P460/42 backs, it appears as there was very
limited printing of the PIEDMONT 460/42 backs with respect to the 460-only series.


Here's the list of the remaining 36 cards in the 460-only series that have NOT yet been confirmed......

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands in air)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Camnitz (hands at side)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (St Louis-ball)
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)
Meyers
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schlei (batting)
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (batting)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat


Please compare your PIEDMONT 460/42 cards with the above list of 36. Any new inputs will be very appreciated.


TED Z

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

I thought Bergen (catching) had been confirmed, (though I have not personally seen it)??? Otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with your list.

Best Regards,
Craig

[tedzan]

I have removed Bergen from the confirmed list, as I can't find whatever evidence I had that it was confirmed.
And like you, I have never seen one.

TED Z

[Exhibitman]

What would be a fair price in vg condition:

--Piedmont 460/42 common?
--Non 460-only star?
--Non 460-only HOFer?
--A series 460 only "common"?
--A series 460 only star?
--A series 460 only HOFer?

[yoyot1]

I can't add anything; only question I have - my copy of the T206 super set spreadsheet from Bill Brown has Chance (batting) marked (the initials are TZ). I'm assuming this is incorrect?

[tedzan]

I must say....that surprised me. I cannot find any evidence of Chance (batting) with a PIEDMONT 460/42 back.

I will look into why my initials are in that slot on the super-set.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

TED Z