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bcbgcbrcb
07-01-2009, 07:40 AM
I am trying to determine if the below M114 Supplement of Red Schoendienst was the one that was originally issued in 1945 or the one that was issued several years later in the 1950's? Any help is greatly appreciated.

FrankWakefield
07-01-2009, 08:24 AM
I do not have a Schoendienst M114. I've seen both at the same time, but it was a dozen years ago or so. That certainly looks like it would be a younger, earlier image of Red. He still looks to be a kid in that one. I'm pretty sure that one is from the 40s. Nice! In the back of my mind the later one shows him fielding, but I might be mixing that image with something else...

tedzan
07-01-2009, 09:37 AM
St Louis Cardinals cards (and pix) that I have from the mid-1940's do not have the "Stars and Stripes" banner on the player's sleeve.

I think that this banner appears on their sleeve in the late 1940's. But, I'll defer to Frank Wakefield, as he is our Cardinals expert here.

Incidently, every Summer when I am at Cooperstown on HOF weekend, I run into Red. A real fine gentleman, and at age 85, he looks
very good. I look forward to seeing him in 3 weeks in Cooperstown.

TED Z

FrankWakefield
07-01-2009, 10:42 AM
I've just looked through my M114s...

None of the Cardinal players that I have show the shield with the stripes and stars. That doesn't show on the 1946 Cardinals Champions, nor on Brecheen, Collins, Fournier, Hopp, Kurowski (although I can't see his left sleeve), Marion (can't see sleeve), Moore, Munger (can't see sleeve), Musial 1943, O'Farrell, Pollett, nor Thevenow.

I do have 2 Dick Wakefield M114s, he's in that Tigers uniform following through on a swing, and big on his left sleeve is that shield with stripes and stars. SCD attributes Wakefield's M114 to 1943, which may be about right. I'm thinking this symbol was on sleeves in 1943 through 1945.

Red's first major league game was April 17, 1945. I concede that a 1945 photo of him could have been used for a 1952 M114. But it seems more likely that BM would have used a 1945 photo for his 1945 M114. Those houses make me think of the restricted travel during WW II, and maybe the Cardinals were doing spring training closer to St. Louis, instead of down in Florida. (Somewhere I have a book that would tell me where they had spring training in 1945.)

I still think that M114 is Red's 1945 issue, not the one SCD attributes to 1952.

I'll post a scan of the Wakefield M114.

FrankWakefield
07-01-2009, 10:54 AM
Dick Wakefield's M114, attributed to 1943 by SCD. He just barely wouldn't fit on my scanner...

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=752

bcbgcbrcb
07-01-2009, 11:05 AM
Frank:

Thank you for all of your insight. I just looked up the uniform on the Hall of Fame's "Dressed to the Nines" website and it shows the patch during 1943 & 1944 so this M114 must have been the 1945 version.

FrankWakefield
07-01-2009, 08:28 PM
Hey Phil,

One more image for you to consider. I came across this in a box that had some old Sporting Life issues in it. 1942 St. Louis Cardinals, eventual World Champions that year...

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=758

If you look at that guy on the top row, far right end, he has the shield with the stripes and stars on it... I've done a closeup of that part of the image. I think that is Walker Cooper.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=759

I went to that HOF site. They say 1942 to 1945, and that looks about right for me. That image of Red must be from 1945 spring training...

Matt
07-01-2009, 08:33 PM
Do we have a photo of the other Schoendist premium? Otherwise, couldn't they have used the 1940s photo on the 1950 premium?

FrankWakefield
07-01-2009, 08:49 PM
Yes sir, Matt, they absolutely could have. And what we need is an image of the other M114. But it seems more likely that the rookie year spring training image would have been used on the 1945 premium, and not the later one. It is an annoyance to me that I have neither Schoendienst premium.

doug.goodman
07-02-2009, 01:46 AM
That you guys are looking for. Note the hard time that BBM had with Red's last name.

Doug

FrankWakefield
07-02-2009, 06:55 AM
Thank you, Doug.

"Albert" at training grounds with the shield, stripes and stars has to be the 1945 issue.

'Al "Red"' on a ball field with stands in the background (he's not fielding, just standing) must be the 1952 offering.