Ebay - Paypal Seller protection? Really?

[danmckee]

A very good friend of mine (not me for once) got burned badly by the gent who's name and info is posted at the end of this thread. He was hoping he was protected by paypal or ebay and both let him down. Any help, suggestions, or knowledge about the fraudulent buyer will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


"Sold T206 Ty Cobb Green Portrait PSA 5 on April 20th for $5500. on ebay to buyer bidsformore. Buyer paid via paypal on April 27th and card was shipped fully insured via express mail and was signed for and delivered on April 30th. After almost two months pass by the buyer files a chargeback with american express stating the buyer claims that the item was damaged on receipt or is significantly not as described. So after almost two months pass with NO contact from buyer stating to me the seller there was a problem with the package or the item was damaged since it was fully insured with the post office he files a chargeback. Once the chargeback was filed paypal immediately cancelled a bank transfer of $1800+ from my account as well as giving me a negative $-3700. balance which paypal wants me to immediately pay. Spoke to supervisor at paypal and they told me since buyer claims it was not as described the best case scenario for me is too have my card returned as there is no chance of getting my money back. The other great news is that so called seller protection policy they claim to have is NOT covered when a buyer claims the item is not as described. Again this was a graded card from PSA!! This buyer bidsformore on ebay last five feedbacks are all negatives from buyers who were scammed from this guy. It's great to see paypal and ebay are again looking out for the best interest of there sellers!!! Make sure you stay clear of this fraud!! By the way the PSA 5 Green Cobb's serial number is 09032078 with a sweet caporal 150 back as I am sure he sold the card within this two month timetable. Here is this Fraud's info where the card was delivered and the info which was given on his ebay account."
Shaunt Azadian
233 N. Maclay Ave. #147
San Fernando, CA 91340
818-402-8786

[Matt]

I knew that username was familiar - he bought a 1915 CJ Cobb from me on eBay via Best Offer a few months ago; two weeks went by and he never paid so I filed a non-paying bidder strike against him and relisted the card. I guess I should be thankful that he didn't pay!

This is where eBay is really bad - while they put some effort into looking at individual listings and transactions, it seems they put no effort into identifying patterns of bad behavior. 3 consecutive negatives from different members (or even 3 out of 6) should get you banned. This guy has 5 negs and at least 1 non-paying strike against him and still has an active account.

[timzcardz]

In this case a check of the buyers feedback would have raised some serious red flags.

Based on that I would have refunded the payment and not shipped to the buyer.

[danmckee]

I agree Tim, paypal and or ebay should have looked into the buyer a little but then the $5500 needs to come from somewhere and at that point, they would be eating it as the credit card company took the $5500 back from paypal.

What my friend has done is completely stopped selling on ebay so they only will beat him out of the $1800 paypal stole from him by freezing the transfer.

[bbcemporium]

So did the seller get his card back? If not, why was he still penalized? Stories like that make me sick.

[danmckee]

no card back at all, he is expecting an empty box with signature confirmation but he hasn't even received that!! And paypal won't give him the credit card info for him to contact the credit card company and let them know they are protecting a fraud.

[timzcardz]

Shipped via USPS so it sounds like it would fall under mail fraud. I would file a complaint with the USPS. If the card came back, or was possibly an empty box, I would not sign for it except at the Post Office and then open it if front of a postal inspector as a witness.

[iggyman]

Scary and depressing story! That is a nice loophole in their policy. After searching the net, I found a few more paypal horror stories that were eerily similar. Seems like this scam is slowly spreading. Paypal is obviously aware of it, but since they cannot control the credit card companies......well, as Dan mentioned the money has to come from somewhere.

http://ask.metafilter.com/77638/Can-I-trust-PayPals-seller-protection-If-not-what-can-go-wrong

I think this "loophole" finally puts the nail in the eBay coffin for me. Way too risky to fall prey to this scam on big ticket items. I will still sell on eBay, but nothing over ~$150 (with fingers crossed). Matt was real lucky, "bidsformore" obviously did not have the funds to pay for his CJ (or else we would probably be hearing the same story from him). Until paypal corrects this, it will only drive more sellers toward auction houses.

So get off that recliner and start working-out......those auction catalogs are going to get even heavier. Now, what was the name of that auction link by that Lucky fellow???

Lovely Day...

[JamesGallo]

I am sorry this it total BS. This guy should not even have an active account. If he hasn't contacted ebay I would do so, at the very least this guys account should be killed.

As suggested I would follow up with the post office and open that box in front of a postmaster and have them write a letter stating there was no card inside.

James G

[iggyman]

James,

It is bull-crap and your suggestion sounds good. But if you read the link I provided (just read the last part toward the end where he summaries his story). This particular seller opened his package in front of a police officer (to get a police report) and it still got him nowhere.

Lovely Day...

[bbcemporium]

I just contacted PayPal and they verified all of this information. The seller has absolutely no protection in this scenario and they buyer has no obligation to return the item. Amazing.

[danmckee]

How can the buyer have no obligation to return the item?? That makes no legal sense whatsoever. That is allowing theft.

[bbcemporium]

I was told that occasionally the CC company will have the buyer return the item, but it was not a requirement. I was explained that since the claim is filed through the CC company, Paypal (supposedly) will try to dispute the claim, but rarely have any success.

[danmckee]

I would think the credit card company would demand proof of return before reversing the charges. I think that is standard practice.

What kills me is they force you to accept paypal because they say it is the safest, when in this case, a check or money order would have been much safer for the seller!

[bbcemporium]

[QUOTE=danmckee;733075]I would think the credit card company would demand proof of return before reversing the charges. I think that is standard practice.

One would think, but from what was described by the OP, this was not the case. I can feel my paranoia starting to set in. Do I sell (give away) my high dollar items through eBay or consign them to an auction house who doesn't pay their consignors? Decisions........

[Matt]

I can feel my paranoia starting to set in. Do I sell (give away) my high dollar items through eBay or consign them to an auction house who doesn't pay their consignors? Decisions........

I think it may not be the venue that's the issue but the quality of the seller and buyer - eBay, the BST and even an auction house can all be safe so long as the parties have good reputations.

[JamesGallo]

As much as this sucks your going to get the BS line that this only happens .1% of th etime blah blah blah, it is a lt different when you are that percent. I have been on ebay 10+ years and in all that time I have gotten scammed out of about 2K, so I feel lucky :-)

As I always say, the seller doesn't have any protection at all and you must accept that risk for the reward of getting more money in a quicker fashion.

James G

[HRBAKER]

"What kills me is they force you to accept paypal because they say it is the safest, when in this case, a check or money order would have been much safer for the seller!"

Dan, you nail the nail squarely on the head! And we all know why they force you to accept paypal.

[danmckee]

Yes, they force you to accept paypal strictly so they can make more money on the fees, no question.

and yes, ebay can be safe but this seller has perfect feedback and it was not safe for him. A seller almost has to look at every buyer after the auction and decide whether to send the item or not.

Paypal and ebay are wrong here, and this makes ebay unsafe.

[botn]

I can understand a claim coming through months after the purchase due to credit card company agreements with their customers but what I don't get is how Paypal is always unsuccessful in challenging a Significantly Not As Described claim when it comes to PSA or SGC graded cards. Both PSA and SGC have written guarantees on their websites. In this example, as long as the seller shipped a T206 Cobb PSA 5 in an non tampered holder, provided a picture of it and was not deceptive in anyway in his listing, how can Paypal not make an argument to force the buyer to deal directly with the grading company? I am not implying that PSA is always right and every card they have graded has been spot on but if there is truly dissatisfaction with a grade take it up with the company who graded it.

Dan here is PSA's written guarantee. Did your friend attempt to provide this guarantee to Paypal for their argument to the buyer's credit card co? http://www.psacard.com/grading/bill.chtml

Also as long as online tracking is associated with shipments it does not matter what is really inside of the package. That is true for sellers and buyers returning a product. This part of Paypal and ebay's policy is mnore about form over substance.

Greg

[grandslamcardscria]

This has happened to me several times via my website.
What American Express told me years ago was that a buyer has 9 freaking months to dispute a charge and that as a seller I need to be aware of that.
There is no protection for an online seller of goods when someone pays by CC. There are all sorts of consumer protection laws on the books but not one for the seller. American Express suggested that I band together with other merchants to propose some legislation.. Ya, right..... :(
Ironic how times have changed from buyer beware to seller beware..



Yes, they force you to accept paypal strictly so they can make more money on the fees, no question.

and yes, ebay can be safe but this seller has perfect feedback and it was not safe for him. A seller almost has to look at every buyer after the auction and decide whether to send the item or not.

Paypal and ebay are wrong here, and this makes ebay unsafe.

[D. Bergin]

This thread really depresses me. I don't understand how this type of criminality is not only ignored but almost encouraged by Paypal and the Credit Card companies.

:confused:

[Wite3]

Not all is lost yet...I have had some very nice dealings with the San Fernando Police Department over the years involving getting a card back. They are usually very helpful and since you have his address, name, and phone number, they may be able to help. You can email or call the Police Department at the following numbers/addresses.

Phone: 818-898-1267
Email: cop@ci.san-fernando.ca.us

BTW, this loser's address is literally within walking distance of the Police Department and Courthouse.

[jbbama]

I learned the hard way with Paypal also..... dump your funds from your Paypal account as soon as they hit. Also i have a seperate banking account only for paypal money. I will dump those funds ASAP also. It is a hassle, however it is done to prevent crap like this from happening. If you want to send my Ppal into a negative balance fine, however you will not get the money from me........ (my accounts) unless this situation comes to an amicable end. My experience was that the CC company waited to see what paypal ruled before paying. Without the buyer returning the card (empty box?) or proof of return , there is no way this should happen! Call the cops, USPS and anyone that will listen that can help.

[bbcemporium]

"Also i have a seperate banking account only for paypal money. I will dump those funds ASAP also"

I agree with moving the money out of Paypal and into your bank account, but once it is your bank account, PP cannot access that money, even though it is the account tied to your PP account, right?

[daviddbreadman]

I refuse to tie my bank account to paypal. I don't know why anyone does this, is there some kind of benefit? I have been with paypal since it was previously called X.com and that is a long time and I've never tied my bank accounts in.

[Matt]

I refuse to tie my bank account to paypal. I don't know why anyone does this, is there some kind of benefit? I have been with paypal since it was previously called X.com and that is a long time and I've never tied my bank accounts in.

How do you get money out?

[daviddbreadman]

Oh I hadn't thought about that! Stupid me!!! Well, the answer in my case is, I don't. I buy cards instead!!

[danmckee]

Dan, I had a detective from the San Fernando police department pay a visit to the buyers confirmed address and found out that address is a UPS store. The owner is a Mario Hernandez and A. Hernandez who signed for the package from the post office is his daughter. However when the owner of this UPS box came in to pick up the package the owner or daughter of the UPS store did not obtain a signature from the person picking up the package. My first question is how can a UPS store be someone's confirmed address by paypal?? Next how can a UPS store owner allow someone to pickup an express mail package insured for $5000. without obtaining a signature??

[danmckee]

How does paypal consider a UPS store a confirmed address for an individual??????? This is utter theft and fraud by paypal and ebay!

[daviddbreadman]

Perhaps the UPS store owner has a fake box in his own store and picked up his package from himself and he forgot to have himself sign for the package so that in the event he is caught he will at most be chastised for not having himself sign for his package. And it disappears and is laundered like a dirty $twenty. I'd say look into the financials of the UPS store and see if its losing money and needed a cash injection of $5k or so to pay rent. Also maybe someone should raid the guys house to see if Mr. Hernandez collects baseball cards! haha

[Anthony S.]

Google search for this Shaunt Azadian reveals....

http://www.armeniansconnect.com/profile.asp?UserSid=211619

p.s. By his own admission, he's "intellegent"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Paypal is not equipped to referee disputes, so it is just going to rely on default rules (e.g. a buyer claiming an item is not as described is always right). The only recourse may be to go after the buyer, either civilly or through the authorities.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps the UPS store owner has a fake box in his own store and picked up his package from himself and he forgot to have himself sign for the package so that in the event he is caught he will at most be chastised for not having himself sign for his package. And it disappears and is laundered like a dirty $twenty. I'd say look into the financials of the UPS store and see if its losing money and needed a cash injection of $5k or so to pay rent. Also maybe someone should raid the guys house to see if Mr. Hernandez collects baseball cards! haha

Very likely scenario. Almost as likely as what happened -- a fraud was committed by Mr. Azadian, who has a box at the UPS store.

[Rob D.]

My first question is how can a UPS store be someone's confirmed address by paypal?? Next how can a UPS store owner allow someone to pickup an express mail package insured for $5000. without obtaining a signature??

Dan,

Regarding your first question: My PayPal address is the address I use at my UPS store to receive packages. My guess is that it's not that unusual. I think by "confirmed address" PayPal wants an address at which items can be delivered (and not necessarily the account owner's residential address). I did not always have my UPS store address as my PayPal address, but if I remember correctly, it wasn't tough to switch. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, just that it's not an indication that someone's trying to pull a fast one.

Regarding your second question, I've never had to sign for a package that I've picked up at my UPS store address. The UPS store signs for it on delivery, and all of the employees there know me, and they give me my packages. I've asked other people who have UPS mailboxes, and this seems to be standard operating procedure. I don't agree that it's a good policy, because the store has no protection if a week after I pick up a package I go back to them and say I didn't get it. There are some weeks where I might pick up 7-10 packages, and they're not keeping track of any of them. I would much rather they keep a log to protect both them and me. What happens if they sign for a package, and it gets misplaced? I have no proof that I didn't pick it up.

So though I don't think it's a good system, I also don't think it's automatically a red flag that some kind of fraud has taken place.

[danmckee]

Makes sense Rob, based on this, the UPS store may be liable then. That is a pathetic practice they have.

The red flag in this case is that the seller does not have the card or the money back, that is theft/fraud no matter how you slice it.

It sounds like that this is a very easy way to steal through a UPS store, my friend may be able to sue the store owner.

thanks for the info
Dan

[Peter_Spaeth]

How is it the store owner's fault if the buyer defrauded your friend?

[danmckee]

For having a service similar to a PO Box (unless I am misunderstanding something) and handing out expensive tracked packages with no signatures or ID?

I don't know, seems like a ridiculous practice to me if you are going to handle shipments of thousands of dollars no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The store owner is probably by contract authorized to sign for and accept packages by the box owner, which satisfies the signature requirement for the postal service and other delivery companies. I think it will be very uphill to claim the store owner's negligence in not obtaining an internal signature is somehow the proximate cause of the fact that a fraudster was able to take advantage of some loophole in ebay/paypal practices and procedures. Perhaps a more plaintiff-oriented lawyer would have a different view.

[danmckee]

Well Peter, unfortunately I am not a lawyer and am probably the most clueless person on this board about law so you have me at a disadvantage here.

It just seems to me that the package should be signed for all the way to the final destination. If USPS and UPS are going to work together than I think both should have similar rules in place. If you have a PO Box, you are not going to get this insured package without signing for it.

To have UPS sign for it and then just hand it out to whoever wonders in the store claiming to have a box there, or actually having a box there, just seems a little lax to me at that point.

I do however agree that USPS was satisfied once the UPS store signed for the package.

[Rob D.]

To have UPS sign for it and then just hand it out to whoever wonders in the store claiming to have a box there, or actually having a box there, just seems a little lax to me at that point.

Well, that's not what I described. I said that every employee at my store knows me, which is a bit different than them handing packages out to "whomever wanders into the store."

I'm pretty sure that if my wife, who never has been in the store, walked in and said she was there to pick up any packages or mail for me, she would be asked to show some ID (or I would get a phone call to verify).

[danmckee]

I understand Rob and that is great that they know you and do that for you. But besides you being an honest guy, what is to stop you from going in days after and stating you never received the package? The poor schmuck who shipped it paid for signature confirmation of delivery and here you could have it with no proof of delivery. That is the point I am trying to make. Dan.

[martyogelvie]

FWIW
I apologize in advance if this has already been noted on the boards but eBay is planning on rolling out a new Protection Policy/standard. I have only seen the logo and am not familiar with what will take place but they are aware of the issues and are taking steps to improve them..

[danmckee]

That is actually a hopeful sign Marty but in the meantime, how many more of us need to take $5500 hits before ebay and paypal realize how ridiculous their seller protection is?

[D. Bergin]

FWIW
I apologize in advance if this has already been noted on the boards but eBay is planning on rolling out a new Protection Policy/standard. I have only seen the logo and am not familiar with what will take place but they are aware of the issues and are taking steps to improve them..


Can't wait to see what the "catch" is.

[GrayGhost]

I have scaled back on selling on ebay, partly due to material and partly due to this stupid paypal policy. When I buy, I ask in advance if they will take Money order, as my paypal acct often is too low, etc.

I need the money in "cash or check" form, rather than in paypal, where I have to wait to take it out, for it to be there and transfer, etc. I understand bout faster shipping, and all, but I like MO preferably. I have only had one bad experience on ebay, w someone who said they never got my item, tho they had left a positive feedback a week before t hey complained, and I still lost, because I didnt bother keeping a receipt.

Paypal has their advantages, but buyer protection and ebay new policy. It should be interesting indeed.

[Ladder7]

A lot of good advice here... Better than my sniper rifle scheme. Be diligent and keep us posted.

[Wite3]

Well...a little more quick research...first...in order to rent a mailbox at the UPS store the person needs to have two valid forms of id, one of which is a photo id. The store is supposed to keep these on file (I called customer service on this one). I would get the San Fernando Police department back involved. I would also put in a call to UPS corporate and put a little pressure on. I know that mail fraud is not their highest priority in SFPD but this could have been handled a bit better.

Also, the UPS store should have his phone number. They routinely call people in to pick up packages. The SFPD could just wait for him.

Joshua

[Wite3]

And more...Apparently Shaunt is a true criminal...there are several fictitious business complaints against him as well in several local papers including Glendale, Beverly Hills, and San Fernando. Might want to bring this to the police's attention as well.

Joshua

[danmckee]

Great info and thanks! The police told my friend that there was no crime committed so it is out of their hands. They told him it is a civil issue. I told him to call back and get another PI. This is an obvious crime to me.

[D. Bergin]

Great info and thanks! The police told my friend that there was no crime committed so it is out of their hands. They told him it is a civil issue. I told him to call back and get another PI. This is an obvious crime to me.



That's a pretty huge loophole for ambitious criminals if that's NOT a crime.

[danmckee]

I agree, that is a ridiculous response. This is blatant theft and fraud and for any law enforcement to turn a cheek to this is just sickening.

[danmckee]

Nothing like a lazy police department having a bad email address! Didn't someone say they worked with these guys with success?? I am shocked.

Delivery to the following recipients was aborted after 1 second(s):

* cop@ci.san-fernando.ca.us

[Exhibitman]

If he wants I will see if I can shake something loose. San Fernando is local to me.

[danmckee]

Awesome! thanks Adam!! I will have him email you. Dan.

[danmckee]

It looks like we are at a dead end with this guy. American Express issued a charge back and never even required that he return the merchandise!!

Paypal accepts the item not as described reason even though the Cobb card was graded by a reputable 3rd party service that ebay recognizes on its listings.

[botn]

Dan,

Have you guys asked paypal or ebay how a SGC or PSA graded card is even eligible for a SNAD claim? Both of those companies stand behind their product and have written guarantees. Not sure how they can stick a seller with this responsibility. Any lawyers want to comment????

Really sorry to hear about the outcome.

Greg

[D. Bergin]

Amazingly this guy is still registered at Ebay.

Also, thanks to Ebay's new rules...........you can't even leave him a negative for stealing your money and your cards either.

.....and get this..........he's still listed as a PowerSeller even though he hasn't received a feedback in about a year.

:mad:

[tbob]

This guy is a real steaming pile. Makes me want to turn to the BST for selling cards even more.

[bbcemporium]

What is the buyer's eBay ID? Sounds like a good candidate to add to the blocked list.

[danmckee]

Same exact thing that happened to my buddy!! American Express is a CANCER of a Credit Card company!!

http://www.ripoffreport.com/Credit-Card-Fraud/PayPal/paypal-merriem-wombacher-ame-3fdw2.htm