View Full Version : Discussion about B.S.T. Auction End Times and Determining an Auction Winner...
leftygrove10
06-23-2009, 05:56 PM
I noticed in a recent net54 B.S.T. auction that a couple people had put in last second bids for the card being auctioned. It got me wondering what would happen if the following occurred during a net54 B.S.T. auction:
Suppose the auction was dictated by the seller to end at 10:00 pm. Suppose the following last minute bids were placed by different bidders:
Bidder #1 bids $100 at 9:58 pm...
Bidder #2 bids $120 at 9:59 pm...
Bidder #3 bids $130 at 10:00 pm...
Bidder #4 bids $150 at 10:01 pm...
Note the times of the bids. Net54 time stamps contain only the hour and minutes. Seconds are not included.
Who is the winner of this auction?
The auction was declared by the seller to end at exactly 10:00 pm (which means 10:00 with 00 seconds). Had this been an eBay auction, bids that occurred after 10:00 with 00 seconds would be too late and would not be allowed. Therefore, in the above scenerio, bidder #2 should be the winner of the auction with a bid of $120.
The bid for bidder #3 occurred at 10:00 pm. Since the auction ended at 10:00 with 00 seconds, this bid should be considered late and should not count.
Should the seller in the above example B.S.T. auction specify specifically that bids with time stamps of 9:59 pm would be accepted and that bids occurring at 10:00 pm or later would not be accepted?
This WILL EVENTUALLY HAPPEN on net54, because there have been several last second/minute bids recently. Now is the time to discuss this issue so that hard feelings and fights do not occur when it does happen.
In my opinion, sellers should specifically specify the last time stamp for which bids will be considered.
The answer will, seemingly, have to be in the way the auction closing is phrased. Maybe it will be wise for future auctions to say something like "All bids must be placed in this thread before 10pm CST" (or whatever you want but you get the idea). That way we know that if the bid is at 10xx then it is too late. Just a thought....I agree that this will be an issue sooner than later if it's not addressed. I (and I am sure the other mods) really don't want to get involved in making any rules or being the deciding factor on a sale....:eek:
FrankWakefield
06-23-2009, 06:12 PM
The thing to do is say that the auction ends at 10pm if no bids have been placed within the preceding 5 minutes. Once a high bid comes in it adds 5 minutes to the closing time. In a similar fashion to what the fancy auction guys do... But the seller/auctioneer should foresee that possibility and set forth a procedure. With what you have, it is a potential mess.
As Leon stated, it's entirely up to the seller. In your above example, if the seller chose to accept the 10 PM or even the 10:01 PM bid, that's his/her choice and any ensuing outcry is also his/hers to deal with. To that end, I agree that it behooves every seller (not just for the auctions, but any BST transaction) to clarify as best as possible anything they might consider ambiguous ahead of time to avoid headaches.
Edited to comment on Frank's point - in the case I think Brad is referring to, the seller actually did much better using the hard ending time then he would have with the 5 minute rule. Also, wouldn't the 5 minute rule have the same issue?
Rob D.
06-23-2009, 06:19 PM
Maybe it will be wise for future auctions to say something like "All bids must be placed in this thread before 10pm CST" (or whatever you want but you get the idea). That way we know that if the bid is at 10xx then it is too late.
Exactly. A simple solution.
Also, wouldn't the 5 minute rule have the same issue?
Yes, it would.
barrysloate
06-23-2009, 06:25 PM
It's probably not a bad idea to allow bidders who are active to place another bid after 10:00, kind of like letting all qualified bidders continue after the closing time in a catalog auction. It might need to be fine tuned, but sniping makes no sense in these kinds of auctions because there is no clock that can close precisely as on ebay.
smtjoy
06-23-2009, 06:32 PM
I guess it should be up to whos selling the item but I like Franks idea of a 5 minute rule, the auction ends once it recieves no bids for 5 minutes after the ending time.
FrankWakefield
06-23-2009, 06:52 PM
I think the 5 minute rule fixes the problem mentioned...
With these bids:
Bidder #1 bids $100 at 9:58 pm...
Bidder #2 bids $120 at 9:59 pm...
Bidder #3 bids $130 at 10:00 pm...
Bidder #4 bids $150 at 10:01 pm...
The $100 bid moves closing time to 10:03
The $120 bid moves closing to 10:04
The $130 bid is timely, and moves closing to 10:05
The $150 bid is before the new closing, and moves the closing to 10:06
No other bids follow, so at 10:06 Bidder #4 wins. And with the 5 minute rule bidders 1, 2, and 3 have had a chance to bid again.
I agree with what Barry says about who could bid after the advertised closing, it should only be folks who've actually bid, I'd think. No new bidders after the advertised closing.
And believe me, the time zone needs to be specified!!!!! I screwed that up myself.
sox1903wschamp
06-23-2009, 07:05 PM
I think the 5 minute rule fixes the problem mentioned...
With these bids:
Bidder #1 bids $100 at 9:58 pm...
Bidder #2 bids $120 at 9:59 pm...
Bidder #3 bids $130 at 10:00 pm...
Bidder #4 bids $150 at 10:01 pm...
The $100 bid moves closing time to 10:03
The $120 bid moves closing to 10:04
The $130 bid is timely, and moves closing to 10:05
The $150 bid is before the new closing, and moves the closing to 10:06
No other bids follow, so at 10:06 Bidder #4 wins. And with the 5 minute rule bidders 1, 2, and 3 have had a chance to bid again.
I agree with what Barry says about who could bid after the advertised closing, it should only be folks who've actually bid, I'd think. No new bidders after the advertised closing.
And believe me, the time zone needs to be specified!!!!! I screwed that up myself.
Frank knocked this one out of the ballpark. I agree completely.
barrysloate
06-23-2009, 07:08 PM
I think there is the small problem of combining two different systems. Ebay is unique from catalog auctions in that it ends precisely at a particular second, so sniping is a big part of one's strategy. There is no sniping in a catalog auction.
However, the BST seems to be set up like a catalog auction, but with sniping at the end, even though there is no descending clock. It's still new and will have some growing pains.
I think the 5 minute rule fixes the problem mentioned...
The $150 bid is before the new closing, and moves the closing to 10:06
No other bids follow, so at 10:06 Bidder #4 wins. And with the 5 minute rule bidders 1, 2, and 3 have had a chance to bid again.
Frank - maybe I'm missing something, but in your scenario, if a new bid is recorded at 10:06, won't that be the same issue raised above? Is that bid after the 10:06 auction close? As I said, I don't think the 5 minutes solves anything other then the theory that it might help the seller get more money, but again, that was disproved by the factual case we had in the BST.
slidekellyslide
06-23-2009, 07:21 PM
Frank's idea seems to be the way to go IMO.
sox1903wschamp
06-23-2009, 07:22 PM
Frank - maybe I'm missing something, but in your scenario, if a new bid is recorded at 10:06, won't that be the same issue raised above? Is that bid after the 10:06 auction close? As I said, I don't think the 5 minutes solves anything other then the theory that it might help the seller get more money, but again, that was disproved by the factual case we had in the BST.
If a bid from one of the original bidders comes in at 10:06, the auction now closes at 10:11pm. Correct? And so on and so on until 5 minutes passes w/o a bid. Same principal as say H&S except that is a 30 minute clock.
Rob D.
06-23-2009, 07:26 PM
But, Michael, if it closes at 10:11 p.m., does that mean that a bid with a time stamp of 10:11 p.m. is valid? If it does, then the auction really doesn't close at 10:11. It would be closing at 10:12. That's the point Matt -- correct me if I'm wrong, Matt -- and I are making.
A "five-minute" rule, while having some positive attributes, doesn't really address the original potential problem that was brought to light.
Edited to add that it all goes back to Leon's suggestion that the seller merely needs to say what the latest time stamp on a bid is acceptable. Much simpler and it solves the problem that was raised.
If a bid from one of the original bidders comes in at 10:06, the auction now closes at 10:11pm. Correct? And so on and so on until 5 minutes passes w/o a bid. Same principal as say H&S except that is a 30 minute clock.
Brad's issue was that if the auction closes at 10:06 then there was ambiguity as to whether bids with a 10:06 timestamp count or not since they are passed 10:06:00 which is when the auction ended. If you want to say that "auction ending at 10:06" actually means 10:06:59 then you could do that without a 5 minute rule as well. The 5 minute rule does nothing to address Brad's point unless I'm missing something...
Edited to add that Rob beat me too it. Exactly.
sox1903wschamp
06-23-2009, 07:41 PM
Brad's issue was that if the auction closes at 10:06 then there was ambiguity as to whether bids with a 10:06 timestamp count or not since they are passed 10:06:00 which is when the auction ended. If you want to say that "auction ending at 10:06" actually means 10:06:59 then you could do that without a 5 minute rule as well. The 5 minute rule does nothing to address Brad's point unless I'm missing something...
Edited to add that Rob beat me too it. Exactly.
I see your points but since we do not go down to the second on the time stamp, I think a bid that comes in at 10:06 is valid. 10:07 is not valid. So if we had a bid at 10:01, anything 10:06 or before is valid and anything stamped 10:07 is too late. So the minutes of 10:02,3,4,5,6 add up to 5 full minutes passed without a bid and the auction is over.
I see your points but since we do not go down to the second on the time stamp, I think a bid that comes in at 10:06 is valid. 10:07 is not valid. So if we had a bid at 10:01, anything 10:06 or before is valid and anything stamped 10:07 is too late. So the minutes of 10:02,3,4,5,6 add up to 5 full minutes passed without a bid and the auction is over.
But that's no different then ending at 10 PM and saying 10 PM means bids including those with a 10:00 time stamp will be counted. No need for a 5 minute rule to address this concern.
And just to reiterate - this is an ambiguous issue and up to each seller to decide for themselves how they will handle it.
sox1903wschamp
06-23-2009, 08:05 PM
But that's no different then ending at 10 PM and saying 10 PM means bids including those with a 10:00 time stamp will be counted. No need for a 5 minute rule to address this concern.
And just to reiterate - this is an ambiguous issue and up to each seller to decide for themselves how they will handle it.
Matt: If you end at a straight 10pm the bidders have no shot to respond to a bid placed right before the 10:01 timestamp. Correct? On the BST, with a hotly contested auction, your screwed if someone gets that last bid in just before the time stamp changes to 10:01. At least with the 5 minute rule, you can react... right? Am I missing something? It sounds like you are saying "get your best bid in by 10:00" but I would think the seller would prefer someone to be able to react against a high bid coming in at the last moment.
And I agree, it is an ambiguous issue that is up to the seller and I am basing my thoughts off of Frank's outlined plan.
Matt: If you end at a straight 10pm the bidders have no shot to respond to a bid placed right before the 10:01 timestamp. Correct? On the BST, with a hotly contested auction, your screwed if someone gets that last bid in just before the time stamp changes to 10:01. At least with the 5 minute rule, you can react... right? Am I missing something?
Mike - a 5 minute rule does allow time for another bidder to react but that wasn't Brad's issue in his post.
I'll leave this thread alone at this point; just wanted to clarify that Frank's suggestion doesn't do anything to address Brad's concern.
leftygrove10
06-23-2009, 08:22 PM
The 5 minute rule may not solve the time stamp problem, as mentioned above. However, the 5 minute rule would give bidders who have been outbid the chance to come back with another bid. They have 5 minutes to decide whether or not to put in another bid. In that 5 minutes, some bidders will decide to bid again and some will decide to pass. If nothing else, the 5 minute rule will REDUCE the chances of having issues determining who the winner should be because everyone has more time to decide whether or not to bid. It will not totally eliminate the problem with the time stamp.
As others have mentioned above, it should be the responsibility of the seller to clearly establish the rules of the auction up front. It also should be the responsiblity of the seller to determine the winner in the event of any questions brought on by snipe bids. The moderators should not have to make that decision.
sox1903wschamp
06-23-2009, 08:24 PM
Mike - a 5 minute rule does allow time for another bidder to react but that wasn't Brad's issue in his post.
I'll leave this thread alone at this point; just wanted to clarify that Frank's suggestion doesn't do anything to address Brad's concern.
Okay Matt, I will hang it up also. Sorry for the long winded discussion and I was mostly reacting to Frank's plan. I think the seller just needs to be SPECIFIC when there are no hard and fast rules. In Brad's original note, the seller could say "All bids up to and including 10:00pm". With that said, the 10pm bidder would win, 10:01 would not. Really, that is what Brad is saying in his original post. Be specific so there are no fights later. Regards, Michael
FrankWakefield
06-23-2009, 08:42 PM
It doesn't matter if it is 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 2 minutes or what... but the seller does need a RULE about it to avoid problems.
I agree with most of what's above.
Here, at this site, our time is incremented in minutes. Not minutes and seconds. So if there is a 5 minute rule, and the last bid was at 10:01, any bid that showed a 10:06 posting could be accepted, even if it was actually more than 300 seconds after the post. Precision at this site is by the minute, I think that's what a seller has to go by to minimize problems.
And posting a time zone is a must.
As for the demise of sniping with auctions here, I think that is a good thing for the seller. It's more like an auction. Think about a real estate auction. They start at a specified time. You have to figure that if they start at 10am there will be a few minutes of preliminaries, and eventually some bidding. The auction doesn't end until the going, going, sold. That's an auction. What eBay does is a hybrid auction, even though they want to call it an auction. An auction here with a 3 or 5 minute rule is much closer to a true auction.
sbfinley
06-24-2009, 12:35 AM
I agree with the five minute rule. But it is entirely up to the auctioneer. And hey, If the auction runs over, I believe it's a positive for the seller. Any way, shape, or form of it I am extremely pleased with both the B/S/T and the auction threads lately as there have been a plethora of swag to be had.
I hope the ability to edit a posting (and thus the ability to edit a bid) never becomes an issue. Take this example:
- At 3:00, someone bids $100 for Item A;
- At 3:10, a person who had planned to bid $11 for Item A does not post their bid, as they see the $100 bid posted at 3:00;
- At 3:14, the person who placed the $100 bid at 3:00 edits that bid down to $10, as it was never their intention to bid $100, they merely hit an extra zero by mistake;
- At 3:15, the auction ends as per the end time previously indicated by the seller.
The end result is an auction item that should have sold for $11 instead selling for $10 due to the ability to edit a post.
(note: The solution to this could be an explicit prohibition, or rule, on editing after placing a bid.)
A post will always be shown to have an edit in it when one is done. If anyone tries any funny business I doubt they would get away with it for very long. I can't imagine we would let that person be on the board any longer either....
I still go back to my originall KISS method of saying when it ends....but again, what do I know?. "All bids must be in before XX"
...Some day maybe we will integrate some auction s/w into the BST but that would be a big undertaking and is not on the agenda at this time.....
FrankWakefield
06-25-2009, 06:44 AM
Matt and Brad,
Let go of the idea of seconds ( units of time ) in your heads, to understand this. Here on this board, at present, time is measured in increments of minutes. It matters not of the Net54 clock goes from "9:59" to "10"00" at 9:59:31, or 10:00:00, or when....
If a bidder bids $200 at 9:59pm in an auction closing at 10:00pm with a 5 minute rule, then what seems simple is that the auction ends at 10:04, and any bids that are posted with a 10:04 time would be accepted... If someone constantly monitoring and refreshing the thread saw that a $210 bid with a time mark of 10:04 actually occurred 5 minutes 26 seconds or 5 minutes 47 seconds after that $200 bid would be making that observation with a false perception of precision.
It seems obvious to me that 5 minutes is 5 minutes. And you don't cut off the auction 4 minutes later with a 5 minute rule... If I understand what you guys are querying it would be similar to when was the milleinium? Lacking a year 0 anno domini, the year 1000 would have been the 999th year, 2000 the 1999th year, and all of the hoopla at New Year's January 1 2000 was a year early.
Simply, 5 minutes is 5 minutes. An auction ending at 10pm with a 5 minute rule and a bid marked 9:58 would end at 10:03, that is at the conclusion of the 5th minute after that 9:58 bid. A bid marked 10:03 would be timely, a bid marked 10:04 would be late.
Surely it isn't being suggested that a 5 minute rule means 4 minutes???
Crazy me would have thought an auction ending at 10 with a 5 minute rule would have ended at 10:05 with no bids after 10, regardless of bids before 10.....I am far too simple minded....:o