View Full Version : Identify age and type of this photo - 1860s-1880s?
orator1
06-11-2009, 10:43 AM
This photo is in the Hall of Fame archives.
What type of photo is it - a carte de viste?
If so, what years were carte de vistes (if this is a cdv) created?
I know the name and team provide some leads, but just based on the type of photo what is the approximate date of this photo?
The reason I ask is that the HOF's identification of this photo doesn't look like that person to me. The age of the photo would help to answer that question.
Paul C.
rhettyeakley
06-11-2009, 11:07 AM
It is a CDV. The height of the CDV's popularity was during the 1860's and 1870's although they were still used after that, the Cabinet photo became more popular.
barrysloate
06-11-2009, 11:38 AM
It's either a cabinet photo or a CdV, depending upon the size. Do you know its dimensions? It certainly looks like it could be circa 1875.
19cbb
06-11-2009, 11:41 AM
Strange... this same CDV with the horizontal crease was sold on REA's June 1996 auction.
Lot 801
barrysloate
06-11-2009, 11:54 AM
Knew it looked vaguely familiar...good detective work.
orator1
06-11-2009, 01:42 PM
The HOF identified this as Jim O'Rourke, but this individual does not look like Jim O'Rourke to me. I will post known photos of him later for comparison.
Is it possible that this photo is Tom O'Rourke who played on Boston in 1887 and 1888? Anyone have a close-up photo of Tom for comparison?
Jim had a brother John O'Rourke who played for Boston in 1879 and 1880. Both brothers played outfield together on the 1880 Boston team. I will post photos of John for comparison as well.
I think these three players were the only O'Rourkes to play for Boston during that time period.
19cbb
06-11-2009, 02:02 PM
Paul, do you know if the original photograph is in fact part of the HOF archive?
Identity debate aside, I'm really intrigued on how the same CDV ended up for public auction.
Was the CDV deaccessioned prior to 1996?
Was it acquired by the HOF or was it received as a donation after the auction?
bmarlowe1
06-11-2009, 02:16 PM
orator1 says: "The reason I ask is that the HOF's identification of this photo doesn't look like that person to me."
You are right - that guy is not Jim O'Rourke - for sure.
Nor is he Tom O'Rourke:
orator1
06-11-2009, 02:20 PM
Below is the email I received recently from the HOF.
Even though the HOF described this as a cdv I wanted confirmation of this from net54 experts, to help pin down the date.
"I came across this small carte-de-visite portrait of James O'Rourke photographed by Wood, 354 Grand Street, cor. Essex St. N.Y. Do you already have a copy of this?"
That's the only info I currently have on this cdv.
I will forward your questions to the HOF researcher and hopefully get some answers. I too was surprised to see the same cdv in the 1996 auction you posted.
orator1
06-11-2009, 02:36 PM
John O'Rourke in 1879:
bmarlowe1
06-11-2009, 02:43 PM
The HoF cdv is not John ORourke.
orator1
06-11-2009, 04:57 PM
Comparison of unknown "1870s" player identified as James O'Rourke by HOF and REA (top left), and actual photos of John (1879 - top right) and James (1877 - bottom left, and 1878 bottom right)
Any chance James or John is the unidentified player?
Can both be ruled out by this comparison?
Maybe it's just a younger looking Jim from 1874-1875 when he also played on Boston? There do appear to be similarities.
The only other O'Rourke who played for Boston during that time period that I know of was Tom (1887-1888), but I don't have a good resolution image of him for comparison. Would 1887-1888 be too late for the cdv in question?
19cbb
06-11-2009, 05:19 PM
Would 1887-1888 be too late for the cdv in question?
Yes, the CDV is likely 15 years earlier.
Most cameo portrait style CDVs I have are dated 72-75.
orator1
06-11-2009, 06:36 PM
Yes, the CDV is likely 15 years earlier.
Most cameo portrait style CDVs I have are dated 72-75.
If that's the case it would fit with being James O'Rourke who played in Boston from 1873-1875, and could not be John or Tom. There are no other O'Rourkes listed in baseball-almanac.com who played in the 1870s.
One last comparison with two earlier James O'Rourke photos - top left is 1873 and top right is 1874. Any opinions of this new comparison with these younger James H. O'Rourke photos? Are they the same person? All opinions welcome.
bmarlowe1
06-11-2009, 06:58 PM
Orator1 - in your last post - the first 2 images are of course definitely Jim O'Rourke. They match in all respects the images posted below.
The HoF cdv cannot be Jim O'Rourke. The easiest thing to key on is the visible left earlobe (it helps if you up the contrast on the cdv) - it is detached. The real Jim O'Rourkes earlobe is very attached. Also the hair type is wrong.
Mistakes like this from HoF are not uncommon.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/JimORourkeHA.jpg http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/JimORourkeNYNL1889.jpg
orator1
06-11-2009, 08:00 PM
Orator1 - in your last post - the first 2 images are of course definitely Jim O'Rourke. They match in all respects the images posted below.
The HoF cdv cannot be Jim O'Rourke. The easiest thing to key on is the visible left earlobe (it helps if you up the contrast on the cdv) - it is detached. The real Jim O'Rourkes earlobe is very attached. Also the hair type is wrong.
Mistakes like this from HoF are not uncommon.
From the earlobes it is clear that they are different people.
It certainly fooled REA 13 years ago as well as the HOF currently.
Since he's not in uniform there is no evidence that this is even a baseball player.
Maybe somebody found this CDV that could pass as O'Rourke, then wrote the name and team below the image to make a buck?
bmarlowe1
06-11-2009, 08:30 PM
This nice photo of Vic Saier resides at HoF. On the back it says "Heine Zimmerman", for whom it has absolutely no resemblance. It was (is?) in the Heine Zimmerman file, and as such has appeared in two books indentified as Zimmerman.
In one case the author thought it looked more like Saier - but the HoF intern assured him it was Zimmerman.
There are stellar people at HoF, one senior person in particular I know is great with photos. But still - you have to be skeptical.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/VicSaierms.jpg
19cbb
06-17-2009, 03:07 PM
I will forward your questions to the HOF researcher and hopefully get some answers. I too was surprised to see the same cdv in the 1996 auction you posted.
Paul, did you get a response from the HOF researcher?
orator1
06-17-2009, 10:26 PM
Paul, did you get a response from the HOF researcher?
I did not get a response yet. I made a research request as well so that might be what's holding up their response. If I don't hear anything by Friday I'm sending a follow-up email.
One thing I notice about Jim is he had curly hair. Even when he greased and combed it, it couldn't be tamed. The guy in question, who I think does have a strong resemblance to Jim, has easy straight hair.
orator1
06-25-2009, 03:34 PM
Paul, did you get a response from the HOF researcher?
I just heard back from the HOF researcher.
This CDV was donated to the Hall in the year 2000 by a private individual. They don't know if the 1998 auction winner was the donor or if it exchanged hands again before the HOF received it.
19cbb
06-25-2009, 05:34 PM
This CDV was donated to the Hall in the year 2000 by a private individual. They don't know if the 1998 auction winner was the donor or if it exchanged hands again before the HOF received it.
O'Rourke or not, this is good to know.
Thanks for the update Paul.