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bace
06-06-2009, 01:55 PM
i have a few pages from Chief Benders personal notebook, and there are scouting report. when was he a scout?

FrankWakefield
06-06-2009, 01:57 PM
Yes he was. For several years.

He coached for the White Sox in 1925 and 1926. For the Giants in 1931. For the A's 1951-1953. In 1939 he was a scout for the A's, and did that for numerous years thereafter. He was coach for the Naval Academy's baseball team for a while. Chief was a well educated fellow, he was considered an expert on gemstones. Mr. Mack thought the world of him.

bace
06-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Yes he was. For several years.



can you tell me what years he was, and for what team?

FrankWakefield
06-06-2009, 02:06 PM
He was a scout or minor league instructor for the A's for most of those years when he wasn't coaching elsewhere during those years I set out above. I think he was with the A's as a scout/instructor through the 1949 season, maybe 1950. And it's my recollection that he was in the Cincinnati Reds organization as a scout or instructor in the late 1960s. Surely there's a Reds fan here that would recall that.

FW

BillyCox3
06-06-2009, 02:35 PM
He was fairly expired by the late 1960's.

I think he also ran a clothing store in Philly.

slidekellyslide
06-06-2009, 02:48 PM
I used to own some photos from the 1940s of Bender instructing some minor leaguers. He was in his A's uniform while the minor leaguers were in "Pioneers" uniforms.

Sterling Sports Auctions
06-06-2009, 02:54 PM
Maybe he scouted for Sitting Bull. :rolleyes:

Lee

FrankWakefield
06-06-2009, 03:12 PM
J B is right... the Chief had departed us in 1954. Maybe he had a son that did something in the Reds organization, and they called him 'Chief' too. Aren't there any Reds fans any more??


I just found this, and this would be the guy I recall hearing on the radio, he never made it to the majors, he had a 66-40 record in 9 seasons in the minors:

Longtime Reds Scout Bender Dies

Former farm director spent 39 years with Reds organization

FROM: MLB.com ~
By Mark Sheldon

CLEARWATER, Fla.

A revered member of the Reds' organization passed away
Wednesday, when former farm director Sheldon "Chief"
Bender died at Fort Hamilton Hospital in Ohio. He was 88.

Bender died at Fort Hamilton Hospital in Ohio. He spent 64
years in baseball as a player, manager and executive -- the
last 39 of them with Cincinnati. Funeral arrangements were
incomplete.

As the organization's Minor League director from 1967-89,
Bender was brought in by general manager Bob Howsam
and presided over a bountiful system that provided the seed
for the Big Red Machine. Johnny Bench, Dave Concepcion,
Ken Griffey Sr. and Don Gullett later became stars in the
1970s.

Howsam died last week of heart failure at the age of 89.

"In the last three months we lost three very special men in
Chief, Joe Nuxhall and Bob Howsam," Reds owner and CEO
Bob Castellini said in a statement. "Each left his own legacy here,
and they all made very important contributions to the success
of our proud franchise. Our thoughts and prayers are with their
families."

Players later developed under Bender included Mario Soto, Tom
Browning, Paul O'Neill, Ron Oester, Chris Sabo, Eric Davis and
Barry Larkin.

In 1990, Bender became the senior advisor for player development.
He retired in 2005, but remained a frequent visitor at Great
American Ball Park.

A World War II veteran who earned a Purple Heart during his
service, Bender played and managed in the Minor Leagues for 12
seasons [1]. From 1948-66, he was with the Cardinals' organization.

To honor him in 2002, the Reds renamed their Minor League
Player of the Year to the Sheldon "Chief" Bender Award.
---
[1] Bender was a player with St.Louis Cardinals, Cincinnati Reds, New York
Giants and Philadelphia organizations, from 1938-4, 1946-53 and 1957. He
was both a pitcher and an infielder.

bace
06-06-2009, 03:46 PM
here are some scans from the note book.. please give me your thoughts..

FrankWakefield
06-06-2009, 04:15 PM
Norbert Dundon was a catcher for the 1927 Johnstown Johnnies of the Middle Atlantic League... the Pennsylvania team had 2 managers that year, Babe Adams and Chief Bender. Bender hit .227 in 20 games, pitched in 18 games, won 7 lost 3, had a 1.33 ERA.

If it were me, I'd try to contact a librarian in Johnstown, PA. See if you could send them some money for looking at some 1927 newspapers for that first week of August. See if the weather matches, and the box scores. Maybe you can find a link to August 1927 Sporting News, and see if they have the delayed box scores.

1927 seems to be the last year Dundon was in organized ball. I think what you have there are notes that Bender made to himself as he managed the team. So those aren't scouting reports, those are manager's notes.

Doug
06-06-2009, 04:26 PM
The Reds scout wasn't any relation to the pre war HOFer Chief Bender. Here's an interesting tidbit from wikipedia on the subject:

Many believed he was nicknamed in honor of Hall of Famer Charles "Chief" Bender, a Native American and star pitcher of the Philadelphia Athletics of the early 20th century; however according to his grandson, Eric Muller, Bender earned the nickname after his Navy rank as a chief petty officer. Bender was originally advised to use the nickname by Cardinals executive Bing Devine, who told him, "No one will remember the name 'Sheldon,' but people will remember 'Chief.'"

Click here to read the rest of the wikipedia entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_%22Chief%22_Bender)

bace
06-06-2009, 04:29 PM
Norbert Dundon was a catcher for the 1927 Johnstown Johnnies of the Middle Atlantic League... the Pennsylvania team had 2 managers that year, Babe Adams and Chief Bender. Bender hit .227 in 20 games, pitched in 18 games, won 7 lost 3, had a 1.33 ERA.

If it were me, I'd try to contact a librarian in Johnstown, PA. See if you could send them some money for looking at some 1927 newspapers for that first week of August. See if the weather matches, and the box scores. Maybe you can find a link to August 1927 Sporting News, and see if they have the delayed box scores.

1927 seems to be the last year Dundon was in organized ball. I think what you have there are notes that Bender made to himself as he managed the team. So those aren't scouting reports, those are manager's notes.


i think you are right.. i just found the 1927 roster, and the pitcher-catcher combinations match up.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/team.cgi?id=21430

because these are not signed by bender, would they still hold any value?

BillyCox3
06-06-2009, 04:32 PM
One is signed (hand printed surname). A veritable ton of Bender's personal ephemera has made it to the market over the years. Unless the notes were of pointed historical significance, their value is minimal; perhaps $40-60 for the pages scanned.

bace
06-06-2009, 04:48 PM
the 3 pages i have all have Bender's name hand written as the pitcher in one of the box scores. .. the backs of 2 of them are addresses.

so would it be fair to say a value would be $75 - $100?

FrankWakefield
06-06-2009, 04:49 PM
The Scottsdale Scotties were from Scottdale, PA. Charlie Jeffcoat pitched for them in 1927, Clarence Marshall was the manager and he caught a bit. That fits with the Sunday game that Bender pitched.

The Charleroi Babes had a pitcher by the last name of Davis, and Harold Herman was a catcher there, in 1927. The 'Thomas' pitcher is William Thomas. He never made it to the majors. He was in the minors for 24 seasons, with a 383-347 record, that is some pitching... Dixie Walker played for the Babes that year.

Neat stuff, thanks for posting the scans. Have you more?? You might send scans of what you have to someone at the Johnstown library, and that would get them fired up about digging in the paper stacks.

bace
06-06-2009, 04:56 PM
these are the only ones that i have... i got the 3 for $10 total.. i wish i had more.. these may not be worth a whole lot, but thanks to all the research that was just done.. these mean more to me now than they did this morning.

BillyCox3
06-06-2009, 05:35 PM
Although your items are interesting from an historical perspective, I still think that the estimate I gave above is fairly accurate. Unfortunately, these do not command the attention of most collectors as either of us would hope. Somebody bought several such notebooks intact a number of years ago and proceeded to break them up into groups pf 3-5 pages. These groupings appeared on eBay from various sources for some time and never drew much collector interest. They can really be equated to the trove of Ty Cobb check stubs that made the rounds about the same time. Those generated more interest due to fans' continued fascination with Cobb. Also, some of those check stubs were either signed "Ty" or "Cobb", thereby creating holographic examples that any collector could afford. One enterprising young college student even went so far as to purchase as many of the aforementioned stub varieties as he could. He then paired a "Ty" stub with a surname counterpart, thereby creating a "full name" "signature". He told me that he made quite a killing off of his idea. Here's to you, Chad. Getting a little off track here...

Bender has been left by the wayside in terms of sheer popularity/collectibility. Despite being fairly rare in single-signed ball form, such items bring much less than one would expect for a HOFer who has been dead more than half a century. These sort of statistics always serve to trouble me, as I've always been much more fascinated by rarity than popularity.

Rob D.
06-06-2009, 07:19 PM
I got a chance to meet the Chief Bender who was a scout for the Reds at a pre-draft workout at Riverfront Stadium in 1984. As the Reds staff members who were running the workout were being introduced, the name "Chief Bender" caught my attention.

I got a chance to ask him later if his name prompted many questions when he was introduced to people, and he looked surprised.

"Not as many as you might think," he said. "How the heck do you know who Chief Bender was? A little before your time, don't you think?"

I told him I read a lot of baseball books growing up, and he laughed. He impressed me as a very nice guy who realized how nervous most of us were and almost empathized with us. He definitely didn't have the "big-league" attitude that a lot of scouts carry around. At least that day he didn't.

TheBig6
06-06-2009, 07:44 PM
maybe he scouted for sitting bull. :rolleyes:

Lee

lmao

darkpoet
06-06-2009, 08:44 PM
Sorry about the image size. Not sure how to shrink it.

BillyCox3
06-07-2009, 09:40 AM
Nice business card. There are a bunch of cards from Bender's clothing store floating around out there, too.

FrankWakefield
06-07-2009, 09:49 AM
Nice business card.

I think that the Chief circled numbers for Johnstown wins, and boxed the numbers for Johnstown loses. Those running totals of wins and loses seem too low for that late in the season, so it those numbers may well reflect the won - loss record for the Johnnies while the Chief was their manager.

If you get ready to sell one of those, I'd like one, please sir.

FW

bace
06-07-2009, 11:46 AM
Frank,

email sent on the one you are interested on.

bace
06-10-2009, 12:31 PM
I am talking to PSA/DNA and they might be able to authenticate and slab the pages for $50 each.. JSA will do this for $75 each..

would the authentication fees be "worth it"? would there be any added value with authentication?