PDA

View Full Version : T206 Backs set


cfc1909
05-24-2009, 11:20 AM
Ok I am not a T206 expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Now that there is no black bar Old Mills topping the list of backs, lets see what our members think a complete back set includes.

The red bar Old Mills are not backs anyway. They are a combination of 2 backs to make an error. Not an issued back.

I have added two albums to see the scans of the cards. I included Coupon and Red Cross type ones just for argument. I also included a apple green Sovereign 350. I believe this is a different color Sovereign and another back. My reason is it is not just faded green and it does not appear in the 150 or 460 series. The back also seems to appear alot on HOFers.

I need to do more research on the Sovereign 350 back.

I tried to put the album in alphabetical order but it was a little tough to keep in number order with the factory numbers.

No Cobb back because I don't own one and it really only appears with cobb. An argument for another thread.

1. American Beauty 350
2. American Beauty 350 no frame
3. American Beauty 460
4. Blank
5. Broad Leaf 350
6. Broad Leaf 460
7. Carolina Brights
8. Cycle 350
9. Cycle 460
10. Drum
11. El Princepe De Gales
12. Hindu brown
13. Hindu red
14. Lenox black
15. Lenox brown
16. Old Mill
17. Old Mill south
18. Old Mill south brown
19. Piedmont 150
20. Piedmont 350
21. Piedmont 350-460 25
22. Piedmont 350-460 42
23. Polar Bear
24. Sweet Caporal 150 25
25. Sweet Caporal 150 30
26. Sweet Caporal 150 649
27. Sweet Caporal 350 25
28. Sweet Caporal 350 30
29. Sweet Caporal 350-460 25
30. Sweet Caporal 350-460 30
31. Sweet Caporal 350-460 42
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460-42 scroll
33. Sovereign 150
34. Sovereign 350
35. Sovereign 350-apple green
36. Sovereign 460
37. Tolstoi
38. Uzit

Complete set?

thanks for the correction Dan!

Leon
05-24-2009, 11:45 AM
I am not sure of the answer but that is an amazing set of backs you have going. Adding them to the Net54 folder was very clever too. If anyone wants to go see a great folder of cards just click on Jim's name and go to his profile. I love back collecting!!!

CobbSpikedMe
05-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Jim,

What a great collection of backs and thanks for sharing the images with the board. That's awesome.

Are you asking the board what other backs need to be added to your list in order to make it a "complete" list of backs, or are you simply sharing your collection?

AndyH

ullmandds
05-24-2009, 12:44 PM
Nice collection...that was always my goal. The bl 460, brown om/lennox will be my achilles heal!

cfc1909
05-24-2009, 12:46 PM
Leon-I love collecting the backs also,as you can tell. Thanks.

Andy-I included the album so all backs can be viewed and to see what members think about Sovereign 350 with apple green and Coupon/Red Cross type 1s.

Coupon and Red Cross are the same as t206s and the Red Cross would be the only horizontal T206 back. Coupon type one has the same fronts and the same back design as some other t206 backs. Just a good positive discussion and then I posted my complete t206 back set.

barrysloate
05-24-2009, 12:49 PM
Jim- I have a question about the Sovereign backs:

There is no doubt that there are two shades of green. But do we know if the printer deliberately changed inks, as opposed to the ink lightening during the printing process?

cfc1909
05-24-2009, 12:56 PM
Barry

I am not sure. I want opinions. I have not seen this in the 150 or the 460 cards. I need to check who are on the fronts when I see the different color.

caramelcard
05-24-2009, 12:59 PM
Hi Jim,


Blank back should not be in there either.

It's not an issued back, but maybe included because you have one? ;)


Rob

cfc1909
05-24-2009, 01:02 PM
one thing to note with this Sovereign back,I have noticed that the ones I have are cards that appear in the 350/460 series. Kinda like the AB no frame cards. I am not sure if a front can be found with both shades of green.

cfc1909
05-24-2009, 01:05 PM
I guess it would be pointless to issue a blank back-no ad there. So does that mean you don't need a blank back to have a complete set? :confused:

caramelcard
05-24-2009, 01:09 PM
No, i have a Chance yellow portrait that looks factory cut. I did trade away my Broadleaf 460 though. :mad:

Like the sovereign shades, there's two distinct shades of Piedmont and also the lovely blue shade of Polar Bear, but I guess most collectors wouldn't include those either.

ethicsprof
05-24-2009, 02:17 PM
Jim,
an absolutely top drawer collection.
many thanks for making it available to us.
and many thanks for rejuvenating the ole T206 juices on this board.
I personally think that the apple green is not a 'must' for completing the set but is a printing process issue, as Barry S. intimates.
I do not think that the Red Cross is 206 but would sure love to have one---
that in itself might well make me change my mind!!!
I do believe the Coupon is a 206--- earlier threads on this topic convinced me
well beyond anecdotal meanderings.
With all the 'skinnings' going on in the last few years which created 'blanks', i gave up making a decision on the 'must' status of this card. Since it had no ad and therefore
no real issuance for advertising purposes, it does make me lean toward leaving
it out. Perhaps if i had one---as i said about the Red Cross--- that i was unequivocally certain was legit, then i might well change my mind!! Obviously, over this holiday, i am allowing the 'acquisition desire' have primacy over my
sound judgement.
great work, Jim

all the best,
barry

toppcat
05-24-2009, 03:38 PM
Wow-very impressive collection! I never realized how much of a 3D effect the Sweet Caps backs have-I guess my low grade backs don't pop! :( The public gallery is neat-o.....

martyogelvie
05-24-2009, 03:44 PM
no doubt impressive collection. Its nice to see all those backs in one place, thanks for the share.

Rob D.
05-24-2009, 04:53 PM
Seeing all of those backs together is great and reminds me that within the past year an idea was introduced on the board to create a virtual master T206 set (on a separate Web site), with all of the possible front/back combinations. The idea was pooh-poohed by one or two folks and died on the vine. It's too bad, because it seemed like a worthwhile effort -- almost like posting a complete 1933 Goudey set in one thread, you might say.

White Borders
05-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Jim,

That is a great looking backs set! Here's some more data for you with regards to the apple-green Sovereign 350 - the one I have is Nichols Batting (350-460 Series). It's shown on the right, next to an Oldring Fielding (150-350 Series). Perhaps T-Rex Ted will do a survey on the apple-greens :)

Best Regards,
Craig

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll71/craigw67217/Net54%20Posts/Sovereign.jpg

E93
05-24-2009, 07:13 PM
Looking at them next to each other, they do look like different shades of green. I was skeptical at first. My guess is they ran out of green ink and replaced it with something convenient that was "close enough for government work" as my dad likes to say.
JimB

wonkaticket
05-24-2009, 07:42 PM
Jimmy you are the man great set!

I will always think of you when I look at my back set in more ways than one LOL...:)

No doubt 2 greens...some can be really light..

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/collection/t206advertisingbrands/small/sov350.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/collection/t206advertisingbrands/small/sov350lg.jpg

sreader3
05-24-2009, 07:42 PM
My understanding is that all Brown Old Mill Southerns are hand-cut. As they were probably never issued in packs, you may want to remove that one from your list.

Agree that the blank back should be removed.

The Sovereign 350 Apple Green is interesting; worthy of further study.

cfc1909
05-24-2009, 09:04 PM
thanks for all the kind words about the set.

Craig & Scot & Ted- more research needs to be done on the Sovereign 350 cards. We need to know what fronts come on the apple green and if the same front can be found with both colors.
It is kanda interesting to see if 350-460 cards are the ones with this back. maybe just an ink problem, but it will be fun researching. Maybe not an ink problem.

tedzan
05-24-2009, 11:10 PM
Great collection of T-backs in your gallery and thanks for including the 1910 Coupon and Red Cross backs.

Regarding the "apple green" Sovereign backs....I looked over my all-Sovereign complete set of 407 cards,
and this color variation appears to exist only on cards with Sovereign 350 backs. None of the 151 cards in
the 150 Series in my set are "apple green". Furthermore, none of the 52 cards in the 460 Series are "apple
green".

Of the 204 cards in the 350 Series in my set, only 8 are "apple green". The duplicates I have of these part-
icular 8 cards have the normal color green. This leads me to conclude that the "apple green" phenomena is
random within the 350 Series cards and it most likely can be explained that a lighter color of Green ink was
applied on certain press runs of the Sovereign 350 backs. In my opinion, these are not a legitimate variation,
but just a printing anomaly.

I'm not at home, therefore, I can't post any pictures. When we return, I'll scan some of the cards in my set.


TED Z

caramelcard
05-24-2009, 11:32 PM
Guys,

Still can't figure out how to post the actual card on this board, but here's the link.

Check out this apple green combination I've had for a while:

http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/assortedcaramels/websize/cobb.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/assortedcaramels/websize/cobbsovb.jpg

By the way, call me a pessimist, but I've seen a couple different shades of sovereign. There's some really bold, dark shades as well.

Rob

tedzan
05-24-2009, 11:49 PM
You noted...."I have noticed that the ones I have are cards that appear in the 350/460 series"

I am sure you know that there is no "350/460 Series" in the Sovereign issue (except for the 6 super-print cards).
The Sovereign cards were simply printed in three series....150....350....460.

Having said that, I do recollect that many of my "apple green" cards are Subjects normally found in the Piedmont
or Sweet Caporal 350/460 series.

Therefore, you may be on to some thing in your observation. However, I will reiterate that I have also seen these
cards with normal Green backs. I will get back to you on this when I'm home and have a chance to closely look at
my set.


TED Z

cfc1909
05-25-2009, 07:32 AM
Ted
I realize there is no 350/460 in Sovereign and that is why I mentioned the AB no frame cards. It appears this color Sovereign may appear on certain cards. If the same front is found with both color Sovereign 350, it may just be an ink problem. If not we may need to research what fronts are on these and see if there is a patern

tedzan
05-25-2009, 09:22 AM
As I said in my last post, I think you are on to some thing in your "apple green" observation....regarding the 55 Subjects
found in the 350/460 series of the other T-brands.

For now, I am going by memory; however, I may have a lot more than 8 apple green cards in my Sovereign set. When I
am home later today, I will check-out my set and provide you with a more definitive accounting of my apple green cards.


TED Z

Doug
05-25-2009, 09:33 AM
That's a great group of cards! :eek:

tedzan
05-25-2009, 08:10 PM
"By golly Jim you've got it"....a very astute observation by you....congratulations.

I just looked over my all-Sovereign set; and, the 61 Subjects (including the 6 super-prints)
normally found in the 350/460 series have "apple green" backs. In addition, Nichols (batting)
also has an "apple green" back.....this card is thought to have been in this series,
Furthermore, this lighter green colored back is not found on other Sovereign cards in the 150,
350, or 460 series.

I will provide comparison scans of the 6 super-prints in my next post here.



Other series......[...........................sample of 350/460 Series cards.........................]
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/asovereign15array.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

darker green.......[........................................apple green.....................................]

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bsovereign15array.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


TED Z

tedzan
05-25-2009, 10:54 PM
The SOVEREIGN issue was first to introduce an intermediate series between the 350 Series and the 460 Series.
This series is classified as the 350/460 Series. However, in the SOVEREIGN issue, only the 6 super-prints were
printed with 350 and the 460 series backs.
Shown here are 3 of the 6 super-prints. Observe the difference in the shade of green between their 350 backs
and the 460 backs.


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/achancemattysov460.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/absovchancematty.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/everssov460.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/absoveversbat.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


The next post will cover the other 3 super-prints.



TED Z

sreader3
05-26-2009, 12:52 PM
Not sure what this adds to the present discussion, but there is a similar phenomenon with the Piedmont 460 Factory 42 back. In the Piedmont 42 case, there is a darker blue variant and a lighter blue variant.

Edited to Add: Most interesting to me is that the "apple green" Nichols provides further support (i.e. beyond his existence with American Beauty 350 No Frame) for the view that he was intended to be a 350/460 RP subject, but never made it to print with 460 backs.

sreader3
05-26-2009, 01:04 PM
Ted,

I will take a not-so-wild guess that your Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and F. Smith (Chicago White Cap) Sovereign 350s also exhibit the "apple green" hue.

Scot

tedzan
05-26-2009, 01:17 PM
The other 3 super-prints are shown here (Cobb and both Chase's).

The super-prints are both 350 series Subjects and 460 series Subjects. There is an observable difference
in the green ink used to print these super-print's 350 vs their 460 backs. However, it is not as significant
as the difference that are seen in the 150 Series backs and the first 140 Subjects in the 350-only series
versus the 62 cards in the 350 series with the "apple green" backs.

Apparently, American Lithographic started printing the SOVEREIGN advertising backs with darker green ink
in the 150 and early 350 series cards. Then used lighter shades of green ink for their latter 350 series and
the 460 series.



<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/absov3x4bluechasedkcap.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/babsov3x4bluechasedkcap.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/absov3x4redcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]">




TED Z

cfc1909
05-26-2009, 01:34 PM
Ted Scott

this is good stuff. I have several of each color with the Piedmont 42 and will check them tonight.

Craig W.-Look at your 42s and tell us what the color pattern is with cards from the 350/460 and 460 only.

JR cfc1909

tedzan
05-26-2009, 02:36 PM
SCOT

We are 2000 miles apart, yet our thought processes are together. I was about to note that the 350 Series
cards of Kleinow and Frank Smith also have "apple green" backs.....and, must have been printed along with
the 56 - "350/460" subjects and the 6 super-prints.

With these new SOVEREIGN back observations, we can conclude that there were the following series press
runs......

150 Series....151 Subjects....dark green backs

350 Series....140 Subjects (81 Major and 59 Minor Leaguers)....dark green backs

350 Series......64 Subjects (56 "350/460" Subjects, super-prints, Kleinow & F. Smith)....apple green backs

460 Series......52 Subjects (46 460-only cards and 6 super-prints)....light green


....Kleinow (NY).......F. Smith (Chi)................samples of early 350 press run
<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/asovkleinowsmithsweyou.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

<img src="http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bsovkleinowsmithsweyou.jpg" alt="[linked image]">



Incidently Scot....this Kleinow is the worst card in my set and I've been searching for 2 years to upgrade it.


TED Z

tedzan
05-26-2009, 02:57 PM
Great "wild-guess"....incidently, I meant to ask you how you were pretty certain about the backs on Kleinow and Smith ?


TED Z

White Borders
05-26-2009, 04:48 PM
Craig W.-Look at your 42s and tell us what the color pattern is with cards from the 350/460 and 460 only.

JR cfc1909

I'll try to take a look later tonite (tomorrow nite at the latest) and i'll let you know.

Best Regards,
Craig

tedzan
05-26-2009, 07:29 PM
I have only seen 12 confirmed Piedmont 460 Factory 42 cards from the 460-only series.

Have you any more than 12 ?


TED Z

cfc1909
05-26-2009, 10:21 PM
I don'y see any pattern with Piedmont 42 backs. I only have 10 to look at. I have Latham -dark blue and Young -dark blue. My lightest one is Jordan bat.

I am sure now about Sovereign with 2 different 350 backs. I don't think Piedmant 42s are like this.


Me and Johnny Mc D talked about this sovereign back and were sure it was another back and thanks to Ted it is another of the Monsters mysteries solved.

Ted-thanks for checking your Sovereign set and proving my theory correct.

White Borders
05-26-2009, 10:31 PM
Jim, Ted, Scot, et al-

I have 28 different T206 fronts with Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 backs. I've looked thru them and I don't really see a pattern as with the Sovereigns. Also, the difference in colors is not as distinct to me as the Sovereigns are. Finally, from my small sample population, the normal darker Piedmont blues are more prevalent than the lighter blues.

Here's my data with my judgement on the shade of blue:

350-460 Regular Prints that are normal darker Piedmont blue
Baker
Burch
Cobb Bat Off
Crawford
Davis
Doolan
Downey
Doyle Batting
Elberfeld
Jennings Both Hands
Joss
Konetchy
Lake No Ball
Magee
McQuillan
Overall Hands Face Level
Snodgrass
Willis Batting
Young

350-460 Super Prints that are normal darker Piedmont blue
Evers

460 Only that are normal darker Piedmont blue
Kleinow
Schaefer


350-460 Regular Prints that are lighter blue
Griffith
Johnson
Stahl
Willis Throwing

350-460 Super Prints that are lighter blue
Chase Blue Portrait
Cobb Red Portrait

460 Only that are lighter blue
None

Below are scans of Piedmont backs. What I'm calling darker Piedmont blue is the bottom left, and what I'm calling lighter blue is the bottom right.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll71/craigw67217/Net54%20Posts/PiedmontBacks.jpg


Ted-

No, I do not have any additions to the twelve 460 Only, which I believe are:

Bergen
Chase Trophy
Devore
Kleinow
Latham
Merkle
Murray
Overall Hands at Waist
Schaefer
Seymour Portrait
Smith Chi & Bos
Wiltse Portrait with Cap


And finally, I still believe there's gotta be a Tinker Bat Off with P42 back out there, somewhere :)

Best Regards,
Craig

sreader3
05-26-2009, 10:47 PM
Ted,

I was 99.99% sure that Kleinow and Smith would be apple green.

There is always room for error :)

Craig, Jim,

Thanks for the work on the Piedmont 42s.

Scot

danmckee
05-27-2009, 08:47 PM
One correction my good friend Jim

Old Mill Brown can only be Old Mill South Brown

take care and looking forward to sharing a booth with you at the National!!

Dan Mckee

mrvster
05-27-2009, 10:20 PM
Scot

your right about the 42 pieds....the "darker" blue are tuff!!!!= )

johnny

tedzan
05-29-2009, 04:50 PM
No, I haven't seen any other 460-only cards than these 12......

Bergen
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle
Murray
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer
Seymour Portrait
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


"And finally, I still believe there's gotta be a Tinker Bat Off with P42 back out there, somewhere" ?

Have not seen it yet....still looking, Craig.

TED Z

cfc1909
05-30-2009, 06:51 PM
This is from Art M. from 2000.

SOVEREIGN
Sovereign cigarettes backs are printed in various shades of green. There are three different types of Sovereign back: 150 subjects, 350 subjects, and 460 subjects. Within the brand, the 350 subjects is the easiest and the 460 subjects is the most difficult. All of the Sovereign backs show factory 25, 2nd district Virginia and are fairly easy to find.

10 years ago Art was on to the Sovereign apple green and now we have identified it.

cfc1909
05-30-2009, 07:02 PM
Craig-thanks for the 42 information. Its amazing what we come up with when we share our knowledge.

Tao_Moko
06-01-2009, 10:06 AM
Gentlemen,

I just renegotiated my corrugated contract and went to the plant to see the plate and print process for the boxes I buy for my business. How does this relate you ask? Well it got me thinking on this topic of color depth and a conversation I had with the corrugator.

The darkness or color depth had to do with these things (best I can remember):
1.Pressure of plate to surface
2.Elapsed time of exposure to plate
3.Condition of plate
4.Color of stock (card)
5.Amount of ink applied
6.Color of ink applied

It seems to be proven that the Sovereign backs have color distinctions (#6).

I took it a step further with my Piedmont backs and compared the ink color used on the actual packs to decipher what the printing color goal should have been assuming the intention is to match the pack advertising. The packs are the darkest blue on the front slide advertisement and darker than any card backs I have. The side of the insert opposite the "Push This End" are an entirely lighter shade of blue that is uncommon to any of my card backs (compared to 67 Piedmont all-series backs but unfortunately minus any Fact.42). The Piedmonts that are the lightest shades all show signs of partially missing or faint lines on the borders and clear spots through the word "Piedmont" that supports low ink or worn plates, not enough pressure, etc..

Seems entirely logical that different colors could/would be different by Factory and Series one hundred years ago and that some colors would be more difficult to match than others. Perhaps green is one of those.

A few questions:

1.Were the packs and cards printed at the same factory? I have matched "Factory 25 Dist 24" packs to the cards and cannot make a color match. Probably due to differences in card stock.

2.Has anyone compared their Sovereign packs to their card backs?

Eric

White Borders
06-01-2009, 02:24 PM
It's always been my understanding that the cards were printed by American Lithographic Company in NYC and then sent to the ATC factories for packaging. But perhaps I'm confused ...

tedzan
06-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Why the confusion ?

Yes indeed, all T-cards (sports & non-sports) were produced by the American Lithographic Company in NYC during 1909 - 1919.
The American Tobacco Co. had a very close business relationship with American Lithographic.

TED Z

Theoldprofessor
06-04-2009, 10:16 PM
Gents;

Please forgive the intrusion -- you're way out of my league, but I like to read along anyway.

I got out all my Sovereigns. One 460, 17 350s and 4 150s.
All shades of green from apple through viridan (or at least that's what Wikipedia calls it). Comparing the three varieties, it's obvious that the "150" is in much bigger print than either of the others. Please don't give up yet...

But it also looks like the 350s come in at least two styles, reminiscent of common differences in coin dates;

In most of my (relatively few) examples, the bottoms of the digits in "350" appear to lie in a line;

In a few, the bottom of the "3" in "350" seems to lie below the line established by the "50."

Has anyone else ever noticed this? Optical illusion? I don't have equipment sufficiently sensitive to measure what I think I'm seeing. I hope I'm not making it up, but if I am, please say so and accept my apologies.

It's too late to start scanning, but I'll do it tomorrow if anybody cares.

Thanks for any help you might offer.

Bob

cfc1909
12-21-2011, 07:22 PM
...

sreader3
12-22-2011, 01:05 AM
Jim,
Drop Blank (never distributed) and Old Mill Southern Brown (never distributed).
Keep Sovereign apple green.
Then you're complete IMO.
Scot

sb1
12-22-2011, 09:24 AM
In regards to Bob's post above, often times 350 series card can be found with the 3 over an effaced 1. Apparently they uses the same stones for early print runs of the backs.

Pat R
12-08-2015, 08:24 PM
Bumping an old thread for some of the new members on a great discovery
by Jim with the Apple Green Sovereigns.