View Full Version : Will history be repeated?
Potomac Yank
05-10-2009, 11:07 PM
Will the Patrick Chan Caper, be a repetition of the 1990 Dr Koos Caper?
The dealers at the 1990 Texas National were all very interested in what Mark Macrae, and I had to show and say about the creative Dr Koos. ... But:
Instead of banding together to protect their business ... they were more interested in their upcoming annual Hawaiian shindig.
Instead of getting the creative Dr Koos ... The creative one came back and bit some of them in the @ss. :(
WILL HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF?
No. The shindig is in is in Myrtle Beach this year.
Potomac Yank
05-11-2009, 01:39 AM
No. The shindig is in is in Myrtle Beach this year.
*
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Have you ever thought of writing scripts for SNL?
The Ostrich Mind Set back in 1990, is precisely why we have the Pat Chan's in 2009.
You just reinforce my feelings that history will repeat itself.
Last time that I was at Myrtle Beach, was back in 1953, when I returned from a year in Korea, and was stationed at Camp Le Jeaune N.C. .
Actually, the passage of time is even uglier than I let on. The shindig isn't in Myrtle Beach this year. It's in Cleveland.
What is the 1990 story behind all of this (for the benefit of those, like myself, who do not know)?
Okay, okay. I'll quit with the jokes and let the thread return to its sober intent.
Potomac Yank
05-11-2009, 12:09 PM
Adam, I welcome you, but I'm going to make a digger out of you.
If you're a collector, you might find digging, as the FUN part of the hobby.
If you're a flipper ... you'll find it boring. :)
This forum has an excellent search engine.
Go to it, and write in __ Dr Koos __ in the Posts options, and then do the Threads option. ... If you want to learn about a subject, you would have to read all you can about the subject.
At the 1990 Texas National, many of the dealers were alerted.
They listened, but they didn't stand together.
Because of that ... here are a few of the later results .....
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82390&highlight=Koos
FrankWakefield
05-11-2009, 03:01 PM
I remember the Koos Caper.
When did Chan start that site?
2009 - 1990 = 19 years. I'm guessing Chan started his site a couple of years sooner. So if crap like this surfaced every 17 years, then it is like cicada's, or a comet...
Peter_Spaeth
05-11-2009, 05:24 PM
I am far more concerned about altered mainsteam cards than an occasional forgery of some extreme rarity.
Potomac Yank
05-11-2009, 08:21 PM
I am far more concerned about altered mainsteam cards than an occasional forgery of some extreme rarity.
Hello Peter,
Would you care to elaborate just a little bit more about your concern?
Thank you.
Peter_Spaeth
05-12-2009, 05:20 AM
Just my opinion, of course, but I believe there are many skilled people out there taking creases and wrinkles out of cards, flattening corners, and even trimming and that a not insubstantial percentage of these cards are, for whatever reason (beyond the subject of this post), getting past the major grading services. I think this happens across the board and is not confined to higher grade cards.
Potomac Yank
05-12-2009, 10:21 AM
Just my opinion, of course, but I believe there are many skilled people out there taking creases and wrinkles out of cards, flattening corners, and even trimming and that a not insubstantial percentage of these cards are, for whatever reason (beyond the subject of this post), getting past the major grading services. I think this happens across the board and is not confined to higher grade cards.
Peter, thank you for your response.
Your point is valid, and true, but you must also agree that the point and subject of my post, is based on the fact that some dealers back in 1990 were alerted, and told about a malignant growth in the hobby/business ... Dr Koos (Danny Dupchek).
Mark Macrae flew down from California, and I from NYC.
We met at the Texas national, and the first thing that hits us, is a dealer that has a Dupchek special on his table ... we find out that he obtained it from another dealer at the show ... It took us a long time to convince the dealer that the card was not Kosher ... because it looked good to him ... now where have we heard that before? :) ... He eventually got his money back.
Peter, you mention cards of extreme rarity, and higher grade cards.
You may have missed Scot Reader's post of 2006.
In it, he tells about an encounter with Dr Koos back in 2003.
The Koos creations that he speaks about ... the T206 Bell, Ewing and Mattern.
Extreme rarities they're not.
The point of this thread is:
Back in 1990, Macrae, and a collector, with the great support of Lew Lipset, Larry Fritsch, my couselor Herman Kaufman (BTW, recommended to me by Bill Mastro at a Parrsipany NJ show in 1990.)
I got my money back ... but getting the money back was NOT enough.
Computers were not in fashion then ... so I went to Texas.
I get PO'd, when some one messes with MY HOBBY! :)
Peter, thanks again for your response.
Joe
Peter_Spaeth
05-12-2009, 12:31 PM
I did not mean to suggest that I had any doubt about the veracity of your story, only to suggest that in broader context, I see much bigger and more widespread problems currently.
Potomac Yank
05-12-2009, 12:57 PM
I did not mean to suggest that I had any doubt about the veracity of your story, only to suggest that in broader context, I see much bigger and more widespread problems currently.
Peter, again you're right ... but again the question, here we have a slime ball ... will history repeat itself?
Joe
calvindog
05-12-2009, 01:00 PM
I agree with Peter that the greater concern is the alterations of cards that go on everyday without much notice. And Joe, there are plenty of sleazeballs out there who alter cards or create fraudulent ones. New ones are popping up everyday. Imagine how many more are never caught.
to add to Jeff's thoughts I wouldn't be surprised if people that say they are helping the hobby are in fact some of the culprits themselves. Will wonders ever cease?
Potomac Yank
05-12-2009, 02:02 PM
I agree with Peter that the greater concern is the alterations of cards that go on everyday without much notice. And Joe, there are plenty of sleazeballs out there who alter cards or create fraudulent ones. New ones are popping up everyday. Imagine how many more are never caught.
Hello Jeff,
No one disagreed with Peter's view, especially some one who has dealt directly with a slime ball, and is not an attorney.
Maybe I'm not making my point clear?
Let me try a slightly different approach.
Let me go back to the late 1930's, and '40's, and draw on the more crystal clear direct East Spanish Harlem colloquialism.
First, we concentrate on the ONES we catch.
If we catch a crook, culprit, con man, scum bag ... and you want to make a statement, an impression, convey wisdom to the slime ball ... Do You?
1. Bury your head in the ground like an ostrich, and hope that he goes away?
2. Slap him on the wrist?
3. Or stomp him?
Gentlemen, we know that there are others out there, I'm talking about the ones that we catch.
We can only make a statement VIA the ones we catch!
Gentlemen, again I thank you.
Joe
You cant compare Koos to Chan...
Chans was an easy one for anyone who knows there T206 cards.
Come on... he used black ink instead of the red, thats as easy as it gets.
Ive never been a serious collector of T206 cards but I brought up the questions a few years ago (2005, 2006, 2007) when some collectors were showing off there OM overprints with black ink. I showed (color) scans of the only 2 Ive ever seen (single and double scrapsheet screwup with red SC overprint) and Questioned right away....Why does the black ink overprint have the same factory number as a SC red overprint? It made no sense.
Now if Chan would have done his homework and did his scam with the red ink that would be another story.
I blame PSA, SGC, REA, etc. for not thinking a bit and questioning....why is the overprint black?
Potomac Yank
05-12-2009, 02:45 PM
Aloha Frank,
Good to see you aboard.
I agree with you, as for talent, there's no comparison between Chan & Koos.
Aside for a couple of mistakes, Koos was scarey.
I got to hear, "It looks good to me" by a couple of dealers, and that scared me. :)
Stay well.
Joe
Brian Weisner
05-12-2009, 06:54 PM
Hi Joe,
You were only 60 back then.... So yes that is scary....;)
Nice to see you on the board. Be well Brian
Potomac Yank
05-12-2009, 07:38 PM
Hi Joe,
You were only 60 back then.... So yes that is scary....;)
Nice to see you on the board. Be well Brian
Hello Brian,
Thank you, and 59 ... :D
To all T206 collectors ... there is hope ... I was 52 when I got my first T.
I went to a lot of shows.
Stay well, :)
Joe
Potomac Yank
05-16-2009, 04:25 PM
Richard Simon, in 1994, you were a witness in the Dr Koos (Danny Dupchek) hearing.
My question is ... Who pressed the charges?
Thank you.
Joe