View Full Version : So...auction house endings....
asphaltman
05-03-2009, 07:14 PM
Well let me start by saying I went to bed at midnight EST last night...so I was not up until the reported 4am ending for REA. However, I love the Saturday night endings...
Curious on everyone else's thoughts? While I think ending the auction all at once instead of lot by lot can make for a long evening it's for sure better for consigners.
I also feel many of the other auction houses could benefit from weekend endings....Friday or Saturday nights....I'm not staying up til 4am no matter what...but I may push it another hour or two on a weekend as opposed to a Tuesday or Thursday night.
I also kind of enjoy waking up the morning after REA and firing up the computer to see if I am going to be in debt or not. :D
Rob D.
05-03-2009, 07:19 PM
I've never understood why major auction houses choose to end auctions on weeknights, when they know the closing time will stretch into early morning hours. Heck, even if they think bidders are out doing things on weekends, the auctions end late enough that most people are home in time.
terjung
05-03-2009, 07:27 PM
Saturday night was the right way to go for Rob. The best part about the auction though (aside from the content) was the "recent bids" feature so that you could watch in real time how it was unfolding. If nothing else, it prevented the "why in the world won't he end this thing already" type of comments since you could see exactly why it was staying open... competing bids on Doyle and the George C. Miller set for example.
Abravefan11
05-03-2009, 07:27 PM
I agree that ending auctions all at one is better for the consignors and also agree Saturday closings make more sense. My question is this.
If REA (and any other house) know there will be on average say 12 hours of extended bidding why not close the auction at noon EST? Is it too much to ask the PST bidders to be up at 9am on a Sat morning? Then it becomes less about attrition and fair for everyone.
I personally think all of these auctions ending in the wee hours of the morning is ridiculous. If someone can make a case for how that is better for the consignor I would love to hear it.
asphaltman
05-03-2009, 07:37 PM
Tim-
Well to me it's definitely an advantage for consigners to have the auction end at once like Rob's. I know for me personally, if I'm going strong after one lot and have a max bid in, that if someone tops me at midnight I can then go to option #2 and put a bid in on my second choice if choice #1 has gone out of my price range. If the lots ended individually, then I may not have that option for a second choice after I'm essentially lost my first choice. (yes, barely coherent)
Abravefan11
05-03-2009, 07:40 PM
Dave-
If you reread my post you'll see I agree with you completely. My issue is with when the auction closing time not whether it closes all at once.
asphaltman
05-03-2009, 07:43 PM
Tim-
I've never understood worrying much about when the auctions finally end. I usually put in my top ceiling bid and let it ride and just wait til morning to see what happened. Now, can I do that with every auction house? Nooooooooo. :eek:
Abravefan11
05-03-2009, 07:48 PM
Based on your original comment this is less fair to the consignors. If I can't stay up and have to put in an auto bid and ultimately loss the lot, I wasn't able to switch my money to another lot.
I know there has to be a cutoff somewhere, but if we all know the extended bidding is going to be at minimum six hours, why not start it earlier in the day to put your target closing time closer to a reasonable hour for all involved?
benjulmag
05-03-2009, 09:04 PM
Interesting question whether starting the extended bidding earlier (say noon) would make a difference. I think people know REA will let it go to 3am-4am and bid accordingly. As best as I could tell, bids were still coming in around every 2 minutes or so when they closed it, but with all the callbacks over I guess Rob decided it was time for it to end.
REA to me, despite the torture of having to stay up so late, is as good an example as any of the advantages of closing all lots at the same time. Over the years I have bid in that auction, what I ended up winning was materially different (and much more to my liking) than what I would have ended up with if lots closed individually. I, like any collector with limited financial resources, prioritize the lots I have interest in. Only when I know the lot that is my first choice has become too expensive will I try to win a less important lot. Or, from the flip perspective, if a less important lot were to close first, by trying to win it I risk not having enough left to give it my best shot to win my first choice.
Jeff D
05-03-2009, 09:41 PM
I wonder if the unknown closing time of the auction hurts final prices.
It's obvious that, like sniping, some people want to wait until the "end" to place their bids, to avoid getting bid-up, among other reasons.
If you never know when the end is, you don't really know when to strike. And the fact that people were still bidding every minute or two up until the auction closed means that there were still people holding out on their top bids.
Why not pick a time in the auction, late in the evening, to switch over to a lot-by-lot ending? That way you can still maximize bidding on particular lots, without having a random end time when you're shut out of ALL lots.
Whatever the advantages there are to ending all at once, seem to me to be lost with a random closing time. Knowing that there is always going to be at least 1 bid on at least one lot every 15 minutes, until forever frankly, you might as well just pick 3:30 am and end the auction then. That's essentially what's going on, but at least people would have a final shot to place their "snipe" bids.
There's no REAL 15 minute end, so why pretend there is?
asphaltman
05-04-2009, 03:29 AM
Another option could be extended bidding over a couple days. Why not end an auction at 4pm, begin the extended bidding and stop it for the day at 8pm. Then it starts back the next evening again at 6pm or 8pm or whatever if there is still activity....keeps it from being 3-4am that day and confines it to the night time hours when most are still awake, even if it is over a couple days.
I personally wish the lots ended individually since the card I won didn't have a bid in the past week and would have ended at 4:15 PM if that was the case. Another option would be to put an end time on the extended bidding, but it would probably have to be a fairly limited amount of time so that people would go ahead and bid instead of having everyone wait several hours and try to snipe at the last second.
Mrc32
05-04-2009, 07:21 AM
If REA (and any other house) know there will be on average say 12 hours of extended bidding why not close the auction at noon EST? Is it too much to ask the PST bidders to be up at 9am on a Sat morning? Then it becomes less about attrition and fair for everyone.
I wasn't a bidder but I did watch closely this auction, and I must say the point made here is the one I most want to see an answer for. End it around noon and the do the extended bidding.
barrysloate
05-04-2009, 08:51 AM
The one flaw in all of these auctions, and I have never been able to come up with a solution, is there is no urgency to bid in a timely fashion. If REA closes at 4:00 PM for qualifying bids, and people are still bidding at 4:00 AM, we can assume that some bidders wait 10-12 hours after the initial close to start bidding. That is a flaw in the system, but as I said, I don't know how one could fix it. There is no practical way to offer an incentive to bid early, such as a small discount, so perhaps something could be built into the system to compel bidders to start earlier. Curious if anyone else has come up with a better idea.
I wasn't a bidder but I did watch closely this auction, and I must say the point made here is the one I most want to see an answer for. End it around noon and the do the extended bidding.
My guess is that the answer is that starting earlier won't help. People hold their bids and put them in as late as possible which causes a bad perpetuating situation. Last year ended at 3:15 so this year, everyone knew there was no way Rob would end before 3 and the auction was pretty active, even on some major lots at that time pushig the close to 3:45. I expect next year is going to be even worse - the auction ended at 3:45 this year, which means next year people will hold their bids until 3:30 which, if history repeats, will mean that it will end at 4:15 and so on...
This may end up being good for us east-coasters as in a few years, we can just wake up at 6 and put our bids in then. ;)
Edited to Add - Barry said "There is no practical way to offer an incentive to bid early, such as a small discount" I think either 19th Century or Clean Sweep does in fact do this.
pirateball
05-04-2009, 08:59 AM
I too prefer the Saturday night close (and I also love the recent bids feature), but after watching the bidding until the bitter end, I wonder if ending the auction earlier in the day would really have any impact on the ultimate closing time at all. The REA bidding was pretty steady throughout the night, and it still seemed like a battle of attrition between the bidders and sleep.
Perhaps a hybrid approach could be used:
1) At 3:00 p.m. a person can continue to bid only on lots that they've already bid on. If bidding stalls for 15 minutes, then the auction can be closed, but that's not likely to happen.
2) At midnight (or whenever) individual lots that haven't had a bid for 15 minutes can start closing.
I understand the arguments about needing to keep all lots open so that people can move from one lot to another if they don't want to keep bidding on their first choice (like what appears to have happened with the GCM lots Saturday night), but this might also encourage more bids on the secondary lots to keep them open, or more aggressive bids on the top lots because the second choice isn't available anymore.
Finally, it would be interesting to know how many different lots were bid on after, say, midnight to know how big of an issue being able to bid on second choice lots really is. For example, if 90% of the lots were set by midnight, then it might not be as big of an issue as we think. I wonder if Rob could comment.
For us bidders, though, best solution in the meantime is probably No Doz and a clear calendar Sunday morning.
Couldn't they just put an end time on the extended bidding? If the auction ends at 4 PM why can't they just say extended bidding ends at midnight or something like that?
martyogelvie
05-04-2009, 09:07 AM
Weekends make perfect sense (Saturday preferred). I suppose if there were a item that I had to have, I would stay up as long as need be but to date, no such item has surfaced!!! :o
calvindog
05-04-2009, 09:18 AM
Couldn't they just put an end time on the extended bidding? If the auction ends at 4 PM why can't they just say extended bidding ends at midnight or something like that?
The problem is that Rob wants to make money for himself and his consignors. I won an item that hadn't had a bid put in for three weeks -- and I put my bid in at 2:43 am, as last as possible for obvious reasons. And because I saw so many bids still coming in per minute I knew full well that the auction would not close before 3 am. If Rob closed the lots one at at time the problem of the late ending for the auction would disappear -- but so would a lot of money for him and his consignors and no one should expect that. The longest gap between bids during the extended bidding period was only 2 minutes I believe -- and that happened like once or twice at the most. So even changing to a 2 minute clock would still keep us up all night. He can't force people to bid earlier and to penalize late bidding would only harm him and his consignors.
I suppose one way to deal with this is to close all lots valued at say $2000 or less with a real 15 minute clock after midnight or so. Then at least we'd be able to focus on a significantly less amount of lots and perhaps the intense bidding would end more quickly if the "recent bid" information showed slower bidding. I can't blame the guy for making us all stay up late one night a year when you consider that he's running a business to make money and he's got a $10 million auction running.
The "will you make it to the end" poll during the auction was 29-26 for no, so there probably are some bids that aren't being placed by people that don't want to stay up all night. I hope someday there is a solution that works for everyone, but until then I guess I'll just have to keep going to bed with my max bids in place and hope for the best.
asphaltman
05-04-2009, 09:44 AM
I haven't seen any good reason yet not to have two extended bidding sessions. Again, end the auction on Friday at 4pm, start extended bidding...stop it at 12 midnight by freezing all lots. Start it back Saturday at noon or 4pm or whatever.
I haven't seen any good reason yet not to have two extended bidding sessions. Again, end the auction on Friday at 4pm, start extended bidding...stop it at 12 midnight by freezing all lots. Start it back Saturday at noon or 4pm or whatever.
Dave - I think the reason is that no one would bid in the first one - everyone would probably hold their bid until as late as they can.
barrysloate
05-04-2009, 11:53 AM
Fact is ebay has come up with the only system that allows auctions to end in a timely matter- that is ending at a predetermined time that is known to all bidders. Could this be implemented into a catalog auction?
Obviously Rob couldn't pull the plug at 1:00 AM or 2:00 AM arbitrarily because he would of course leave oodles of money on the table. But what if he instituted a rule that qualifying bids had to be in by 4:00 PM and the auction would automatically shut down at midnight? If everybody had that information, wouldn't every bidder be on an equal playing field? And couldn't anyone leave a ceiling before midnight if he still had some room left up to his maximum?
This would not be a perfect system, but either is one where bidding first begins to intensify ten hours after the initial close. No system is perfect, including the one presently in place.
Abravefan11
05-04-2009, 12:10 PM
The problem with the fixed closing time is the sniping. Most collectors would wait until the final moments of the auction and submit their max bid. This leaves no time for them to get swept up into the auction and bid beyond what their original max might have been.
I agree with Barry that no system would be perfect.
But if the auction has to end sometime, why not a decent hour?
I like the idea of freezing the auction on midnight Sat and then resuming it sometime Sunday with the policy that it could end at anytime.
barrysloate
05-04-2009, 12:44 PM
Tim- agreed, it would cause a major logjam at the end. But ebay has done it since its inception, and it has worked fine. I know, however, that bidders would lose some flexibility and not be able to jump from lot to lot.
There needs to be a way to disqualify bidders who don't even start to bid until 3:00 AM. Maybe a rule that if you haven't placed any new bids between 4:00 PM and midnight you cannot bid after midnight. Anything to force them to start earlier would be a better system.
There needs to be a way to disqualify bidders who don't even start to bid until 3:00 AM. Maybe a rule that if you haven't placed any new bids between 4:00 PM and midnight you cannot bid after midnight. Anything to force them to start earlier would be a better system.
Barry - interesting idea - might I suggest one modification - consider a bidder who is winning a few lots for days and only gets outbid at 3 AM - should he not be allowed to move his money elsewhere (or respond)? So just modify your rule:
If you have not been in the lead on at least one lot between 4:00 PM and midnight you cannot bid after midnight.
Abravefan11
05-04-2009, 12:58 PM
So just modify your rule:
If you have not been in the lead on a lot between 4:00 PM and midnight you cannot bid after midnight.
Matt, that's close but I think you're still penalizing the person that doesn't want to risk winning more than he can afford. If he is winning a large lot, he can't yet bid on another lot until he is outbid on the current one.
How about this rule?
Once extended bidding has begun if you haven't been high bidder on a lot for more than an hour you will be disqualified from bidding.
That would encourage everyone to actively participate. Once you receive your outbid notice you have an hour to regroup and secure another high bid on the same lot or another you are eligible to bid on.
Matt, that's close but I think you're still penalizing the person that doesn't want to risk winning more than he can afford. If he is winning a large lot, he can't yet bid on another lot until he is outbid on the current one.
I'm not sure I understand - so long as he was up on ANY lot from 4-12 he can continue bidding on any of his qualified lots after 12. How is he being penalized?
Abravefan11
05-04-2009, 01:08 PM
Sorry Matt I misunderstood. I thought you were saying you had to be in the lead on a given lot, not just any lot, to bid on it after midnight.
We're thinking along the same lines.
Sorry Matt I misunderstood. I thought you were saying you had to be in the lead on a given lot, not just any lot, to bid on it after midnight.
We're thinking along the same lines.
I initially worded it poorly (sorry) which is what you read - I cleared it up to avoid confusion.
So here's the suggested auction ending pattern:
1) At 4 PM the auction enters Extended Bidding - after 4 PM you may only bids on lots you have bid on prior to that time (same as existing rule).
2) After Midnight the auction enters the Closing Phase. If you were high bidder on at least one lot during the extended bidding session from 4-12, you may bid after midnight on any of your qualified lots.
That might just work...
Abravefan11
05-04-2009, 01:28 PM
The only difference (I think) between what you're saying and what I'm thinking is under your rules if I am winning a lot at 4pm when the auction goes into extended bidding, or become the high bidder just after 4pm on any lot, I don't have to do anything further until midnight and would be eligible to bid on all of the lots I qualified for.
My thinking is you have to maintain a high bid within the extended bidding process. You can't go dormant with no high bid for hours and hours and sneak in at the end. You could set the window for example at 1 hour. Once extended bidding has begun you can not go more than 1 hour without being the high bidder on one of your qualifying lots or you will be disqualified from bidding.
This would encourage active bidding. Does it make sense?
Tim - just thinking about your idea - it's basically applying the 15 minute rule to people instead of lots - that is to say if 15 minutes (or an hour) go by where you are not high bid on at least 1 lot, then the auction is over for you. I think that would definitely get it done and might be the perfect solution, but it would be very complicated to implement on the software side, since you'd need to have different resetting 15 minute clocks for each bidder. If it could be done - start that at 10 PM (4 PM is way too early for that kind of ending) instead of what I suggested above and you might have the perfect system.
barrysloate
05-04-2009, 02:37 PM
Matt- anything that would compel someone to bid earlier is worth considering.
Keep in mind that in an auction such as REA, it's not the clock that keeps bidders from bidding but the amount of the lot. I was speaking to the winner of the 1933 George C. Miller set and he said that he thought he had won the lot at 3:00 AM as there had not been any bidding for a few hours. Then at 3:00 AM a very serious bidder jumped in and all the real action took place.
Why? What was gained by waiting that long? The same outcome could have been resolved at 8:00 PM, 10:00 PM, or at any time really. The bottom line is bidding ceased because the lot hit its max. Maybe bidders hope that at 3:00 AM their competition is asleep; but if that is the case, then the auction is all about who can stay up the latest. And even Rob writes somewhere in his rules that that is not what he wants. Again, the system needs some fine tuning.
Wesley
05-04-2009, 02:43 PM
Bids were coming in very rapidly right before REA closed the auction. That was a little before 3:00 AM EST. My guess is if Rob left it open for another hour, there still would have been tens of thousands of dollars worth of bids placed after 3:00 AM.
Barry - what do you think of Tim's idea above - basically having a 15 minute (or whatever time limit) rule on the bidder, instead of on each lot. So, as a bidder, if you're not high on any lot for more then 15 minutes, then the auction is over for you; maybe start this at 10 PM. That way you can't just wait until 3 AM to bid.
barrysloate
05-04-2009, 02:58 PM
I'm trying to think about all the nuances of that plan but on first look I think it is an excellent one. The reason I like it is it forces a bidder to start bidding. Any system that allows a bidder to wait ten hours before he logs on is flawed.
Abravefan11
05-04-2009, 03:04 PM
I'm trying to think about all the nuances of that plan but on first look I think it is an excellent one. The reason I like it is it forces a bidder to start bidding. Any system that allows a bidder to wait ten hours before he logs on is flawed.
Barry-
That's exactly the angle I've been looking at. There has to be pressure put on the participants to participate or the whole thing grinds along.
At the same time having a definitive cut off doesn't help the early action either.
So there has to be a system that encourages action and exhaust the potential bidders until only one is standing. Much like a live auction.
What can be the on line equivalent of "Going once...going twice" It's not the fifteen minute rule as we know it now.
I'm trying to think about all the nuances of that plan but on first look I think it is an excellent one. The reason I like it is it forces a bidder to start bidding. Any system that allows a bidder to wait ten hours before he logs on is flawed.
Exactly - It effectively forces every bidder to place a potentially winning bid on at least one lot at a reasonable time. That should certainly help. The hole in this plan is when does the auction end - if I'm chasing multiple lots, I could be high on one all night and wait until 4 AM to place a bid on several others; but I'm working on an idea that should solve that issue.
barrysloate
05-04-2009, 03:45 PM
Note that lots such as the T206 Wagner and the N172 lot of 592 never received a bid after 4:00 PM Saturday. In fact the Old Judges ended days before the close. The reason: it reached its maximum, it had nothing to do with a clock. So any system that speeds up the bidding process will have absolutely no negative effect on the final bid. It will get to where it belongs whether it is faster or slower.
OK - after discussing with Tim in the chat - I think we've come up with something, which, dare I say, might solve all the issues raised in this thread regarding auction ending times. Please post here if you see a hole in the plan.
These times are all arbitrary - use a different number if it makes more sense to you:
1) As it does now, Extended Bidding begins at 4 PM and you may only bid after this point on lots you've bid on prior to this point.
2) At 10 PM, the auction ends (soft-ending).
3) After 10 PM, anyone outbid on any lot, will get a personal 20 minute window of Extended Bidding (and normal Extended Bidding rules apply - bid on anything you have a qualifier on) from the time they are outbid. Anyone outbid on a lot from 9:40-10 PM will have a 20 minute window starting at 10 PM.
4) The auction ends (hard-ending) when the last bidder with a 20 minute window open decides not to place a high bid on any lot.
Why this works (I think):
This has the advantage of a hard ending, like eBay, in that everyone will be compelled to place their high bids before 10 PM. No one can lay low waiting until 3 AM to bid, because there is no assurance they will be outbid on something and get a 20 minute window to bid at 3 AM.
Yet, there is no issue with sniping since anyone outbid at 9:58 will have until 10:20 to counter that bid, so no one can say they didn't have an opportunity to respond when outbid.
In essence, you're keeping the auction open to allow two things - someone responding to being outbid on a lot they were just high bid on and allowing someone to move their money to other lots when they get outbid on one, while at the same time compelling everyone to get their high bids in early.
OK, thoughts?
calvindog
05-04-2009, 04:19 PM
Matt, unless you're on the board of directors of REA, Inc., I'm not sure your idea is anything more than fantasy. If I were Rob as long as I was only doing one auction a year I'd leave things as is. If it ain't broke, i.e., bids are at their highest, why fix it? Because a bunch of bidders complain about having to stay up late?
Matt, unless you're on the board of directors of REA, Inc., I'm not sure your idea is anything more than fantasy. If I were Rob as long as I was only doing one auction a year I'd leave things as is. If it ain't broke, i.e., bids are at their highest, why fix it? Because a bunch of bidders complain about having to stay up late?
Jeff - I hear ya - part of this was just puzzle solving and I think we came up with something that is the optimal solution to the issues. However, you and I both saw that REA was getting bids right up until it closed and they probably did leave money on the table with their current system, so it's not purely a theoretical issue. Actually, some of the people who went to bed before 4 AM might have shifted money to different lots if they knew they were going to be outbid, so that's more money left on the table.
calvindog
05-04-2009, 04:28 PM
I think the challenge is to keep the auction as is but get it to end earlier than 3-4 am EST. If Rob stated that he will be shutting down the auction at approximately midnight, can he trust that bidders will believe him? Probably not -- and the risk is too great. The only real alternative is to close the lots on a one by one basis...
Jeff - read what Tim and I proposed (post 40 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=721072&postcount=40)). It has nothing to do with anyone trusting Rob's word on when he's going to close the auction; in fact, it removes Rob from the equation entirely.
We at B & L Auctions are going to implement at least one of the ideas that was overwhelmingly supported in the first 5 pages of this thread.
We will be ending our Fall Auction on a Saturday instead of during the week. As in the past we will close all lots at one time, giving bidders options on which lots to continue bidding on in the event of being priced out on other lots. As we anticipate 200-250 lots+/- , the auction should end at midnight give or take an hour.
Scott & Leon
Brockelman & Luckey Auctions
calvindog
05-04-2009, 04:39 PM
No, I understand, I just don't think that your plan is workable -- it's probably too complicated for bidders (and software). The only realistic thing that can be done is to try to end it earlier...by convincing bidders that an earlier time will be the end of the auction instead of 3-4 am. And why take the chance on that if you have just one auction a year?
The Goodwin auctions are a prime example of ones that should end on a lot by lot basis because there are just too many of them during the year and who has any desire to stay up so late for so many auctions (unless you can't live without a certain card)? I've stayed up for just one of his auctions for just that reason. Otherwise, I go to bed and if I win great but surely money is being left on the table there.
No, I understand, I just don't think that your plan is workable -- it's probably too complicated for bidders (and software).
I'm a software guy so it's OK on that side :) As far as bidders go, I know I didn't spell it out as clearly as it could be, but I do hear that it is more complicated then the current scheme. I'd think it could be explained in a way that is clear. Thanks for the feedback!
sox1903wschamp
05-04-2009, 04:57 PM
From Matts post:
3) After 10 PM, anyone outbid on any lot, will get a personal 20 minute window of Extended Bidding (and normal Extended Bidding rules apply - bid on anything you have a qualifier on) from the time they are outbid. Anyone outbid on a lot from 9:40-10 PM will have a 20 minute window starting at 10 PM.
4) The auction ends (hard-ending) when the last bidder with a 20 minute window open decides not to place a high bid on any lot.
Can you answer one question, if no bids for 20 minutes on a lot after 10pm, this lot closes? If this is the case, what is the difference between this and the current system used by Legendary/Mastro and H&S outside of a 30 minute window?
From Matts post:
3) After 10 PM, anyone outbid on any lot, will get a personal 20 minute window of Extended Bidding (and normal Extended Bidding rules apply - bid on anything you have a qualifier on) from the time they are outbid. Anyone outbid on a lot from 9:40-10 PM will have a 20 minute window starting at 10 PM.
4) The auction ends (hard-ending) when the last bidder with a 20 minute window open decides not to place a high bid on any lot.
Can you answer one question, if no bids for 20 minutes on a lot after 10pm, this lot closes? If this is the case, what is the difference between this and the current system used by Legendary/Mastro and H&S outside of a 30 minute window?
Sure - the lots don't close individually in our proposal. The whole auction has a soft close at 10 PM but all lots could be bid on after that point only during someone's 20 minute window. Only bidders who get outbid on a lot after that point will get a 20 minute window, so most people will be done bidding by 10 PM. The auction officially ends when the last guy who gets a 20 minute window lets his 20 minutes pass without becoming high bidder on any lot.
Conceptually - it's much closer to eBay where there is a fixed ending time - the only difference is that the effect of sniping is neutralized and only those people who are outbid have time to counter.
Exhibitman
05-04-2009, 05:07 PM
I did not enjoy the endless bidding in REA. It gets a bit ridiculous, frankly, for 1500 lots to sit all night open for more bids, with everyone on pins and needles, simply because a few lots are competitively bid. If everything is open until the end, why bother having an extended period? Why not just set a firm closing time and be done with it?
Of all the systems I've seen thus far I've liked Heritage's the best. They had a firm ending time for the auction. If you were the sole bidder on the lot, it closed. All other lots closed 30 minutes after the auction close on an individual basis and only bidders who had put in a bid on it before the close could bid in the extended period. That way, if the lot had no more action after the initial close, it closed 30 minutes after the designated close time. If someone bid on it during the extended period, the lot extended again, but not the whole auction. I found that really helpful since I could watch my lots close in real time and on seeing which ones I got topped on, decide whether to make further incremental bids on other lots.
sox1903wschamp
05-04-2009, 05:18 PM
Matt,
Thanks for clarifying that. As Jeff said, I am not sure the masses could understand this closing style but in theory it makes sense.
And I am not sure the auction would close sooner and could have the potential to go way past 3 or 4am if just one lot is vastly underbidded at 10am and the bidders "slow play" the lot through 25-30 bids after 10pm.
And I am not sure the auction would close sooner and could have the potential to go way past 3 or 4am if just one lot is vastly underbidded at 10pm and the bidders "slow play" the lot through 25-30 bids after 10pm.
Mike - I don't think that could happen - even if two competing bidders colluded beforehand to do that, what would stop someone else from coming in and becoming high bidder (especially if the lot was that undervalued)? (If that happened then only the underbidder could counter and the other fellow would be done.)
Actually I'd bet things wrapped up quickly with this method. To start with the pool of active bidders would only be those who were outbid in the last 20 minutes of the auction and it would dwindle from there as those people decided not to up their bids nor bid on other lots.
sox1903wschamp
05-04-2009, 05:35 PM
Matt,
Okay, so the key here is only the underbidder has a shot....If your going toe to toe with someone and you are outbid and before you can place another bid, someone else who is qualified jumps in with another bid, then you are toast after 10pm even if 20 minutes has not elapsed. Correct?
As long as you were high, then you get 20 minutes to respond from the time you get outbid. In your scenario two guys bid $150 and the $200 on a $1k lot, correct? If I come in with a ceiling bid of $800, then they'd each have time (one from when I outbid him and the other from when his friend outbid him) to come back with a serious bid ($850+) to still play their game or otherwise they'd be done. I assume in your scenario they are doing this on one lot to keep open their chance to bid on some other lot at 2 AM? In what I just described, they'd have to make a choice once I put in my $800 bid.
The more important assumption is that there is no inexpensive "filler" lot in REA that's so cheap that is selling for 20% of true value which would open itself to your game; I'm OK with that assumption.
sox1903wschamp
05-04-2009, 06:09 PM
I don't know. In theory it would make sense but it still seems too confusing. How would we know when were down to the final few or last 20 minute lot in a 1600+ auction?
For my two cents worth, I really prefer the individual lot closing format of the H&S and Legendary houses and you can still transfer your money around but you have to be on your toes as soon as the 30 minute format starts.
But very good brainstorming Matt and Tim! :):)
barrysloate
05-04-2009, 06:10 PM
Jeff- Rob only does have one auction a year, and if his were the only one ending in the middle of the night then point well taken. But there are an endless number of major auctions, perhaps 30 or 40 a year, and they all end too late. Just because some end at 2:00 AM instead of 4:00 AM doesn't make that a reasonable closing time. All the auctions need to find a way to compress the bidding and get to the end by say around midnight.
REA clearly needs a lot of time to process more than 1000 lots, many of them quite expensive. But why couldn't his twelve hour bonus period become an eight hour one, and end around midnight? It very easily could without any loss of revenue.
I don't know. In theory it would make sense but it still seems too confusing. How would we know when were down to the final few or last 20 minute lot in a 1600+ auction?
Yeah - I need to work on the clarity. As far as knowing when the auction is closed - it would be same as now - you could even have a page to see the most recent bids so you'd know how many people were still active; in fact it would be les random then it is now, where we don't really know when the auction will end. More importantly, knowing how much time is left really only has a strategic advantage if sniping is in play, but since these rules eliminate sniping, it doesn't really matter.
asphaltman
05-04-2009, 06:32 PM
I doubt REA or any other auction house is going to change much. In the end, yes there is too much money left on the table...and I do wonder how much more money REA would have garnered had Rob left it open. Would the thing have even been over at 8am? Who knows.
Also, we saw Scott and Leon's post on what they'll be doing next time around....how about you Barry?
martyogelvie
05-04-2009, 06:38 PM
I doubt REA or any other auction house is going to change much. In the end, yes there is too much money left on the table...and I do wonder how much more money REA would have garnered had Rob left it open. Would the thing have even been over at 8am? Who knows.
Also, we saw Scott and Leon's post on what they'll be doing next time around....how about you Barry?
If it aint broke, don't fix it! i don't think the Auction houses even know its broken.. if it even is.
Abravefan11
05-04-2009, 07:08 PM
I agree that the REA and others are seeing great numbers and with no better platform see no reason to do things differently.
I simply think there has to be a better way to get people to bid in a timely manner. It's absurd that some people could not be winning any lot and not have placed a bid between the hours of 4pm and 2am and still be allowed to bid IMO.
My idea is when the extended bidding begins you have to hold a high bid. If a certain period of time lapses without you holding a high bid you are no longer eligible to bid. This forces people to participate and not sit back and watch everyone else keep the auction going.