Heritage Auctions: Ambush Marketing? [Archive]

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04-15-2009, 09:40 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorAnyone else think this is a bit "bush league"? I'm sure eBay would be thrilled to know its auction site was being used to promote another auction.... <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-E93-Standard-Caramel-Honus-Wagner-Auction-Catalog_W0QQitemZ270374505060QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item270374505060&_trksid=p32 86.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A 1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-E93-Standard-Caramel-Honus-Wagner-Auction-Catalog_W0QQitemZ270374505060QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _DefaultDomain_0?hash=item270374505060&_trksid=p32 86.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A 1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50</a> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Visit<a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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04-15-2009, 09:49 AM

Posted By: Dave F I saw that...saw the "Just So" card and had to scratch my head. I'll say this...it's not something I think Rob Lifson would resort to.

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04-15-2009, 10:02 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanthat's pretty lame. i'd understand placing the card on ebay...as a live auction ending when the heritage auction ends...this is routinely done...but selling catalogs on ebay is lame!

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04-15-2009, 10:02 AM

Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-Topps-Pete-Rose-537-SGC-96-Mint-9-Auction-Catalog_W0QQitemZ270374505798QQihZ017QQcategoryZ11 8257QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-Topps-Pete-Rose-537-SGC-96-Mint-9-Auction-Catalog_W0QQitemZ270374505798QQihZ017QQcategoryZ11 8257QQcmdZViewItem</a> $102 for a catalog? The buyer is in for a big surprise

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04-15-2009, 10:11 AM

Posted By: RedIf I was a consignor I'd be happy to see that the auction was being promoted many different ways. The listings on Ebay will get thousands of hits and could draw in new people who don't know about the upcoming auction.

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04-15-2009, 10:17 AM

Posted By: Jim VBThey currently have 101 of these auctions up. Obviously, some bidders are stupid and will be fooled by this, (witness the 1963 Rose rookie catalog at over $100). I bet they leave these up for a while then cancel all the auctions before completion. Seems pretty slimy to me.

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04-15-2009, 10:27 AM

Posted By: dstudebaThey are listed in the Auction Catalogs category.

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04-15-2009, 10:36 AM

Posted By: D. BerginIt says "Auction Catalog" right in the title. It's pretty simple marketing. I'm pretty confused about what the issue is here.

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04-15-2009, 10:41 AM

Posted By: Steve MurraySeems to me that if there is an "Auction Catalog" category that ebay wouldn't have a problem. I think they would have been better to list them with BIN's to eliminate the apparent confusion with the Rose listing. Other than that I have no problem with it.

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04-15-2009, 10:41 AM

Posted By: Dave F Dave- If you want to sell a catalog fine, although that in itself is a bit strange to me for an auction company to stick their own catalogs on ebay. The bigger issue is using scans from the auction, ie. the "Just So" tobacco card to advertise the card. Why not just put a scan up of the auction catalog cover instead of "card isn't for sale on ebay, but is for sale in this auction" or whatever the wording is? I just think it's a little backyard, and not something you'd want a "top tier" auction house doing.

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04-15-2009, 10:43 AM

Posted By: Dave F Steve- You really don't have a problem with this? Even though the entire description is on the card and not the catalog? <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1893-Just-So-Tobacco-Nig-Cuppy-SGC-30-G-Auction-Catalog_W0QQitemZ270374504928" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1893-Just-So-Tobacco-Nig-Cuppy-SGC-30-G-Auction-Catalog_W0QQitemZ270374504928</a>

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04-15-2009, 10:48 AM

Posted By: Jim VBTechnically, there's nothing wrong with it. But there is the perception that they are attempting to mislead here. If they wanted to sell the catalogs... fine. But they have used 101 very different listings to show what is exactly the same catalog. Two of those listings have multiple bids. Why do you think it's OK to take money from bidders who are obviously too stupid to realize what they are bidding on? I question the intent and the ethics of this marketing ploy.

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04-15-2009, 10:53 AM

Posted By: Dave F To me Jim seems like more than just a perception to mislead. Then they have starting bids of $24.99 on all of them...besides the fact they aren't even advertising for the actual catalogs, who would pay $24.99 for one to begin with? I wouldn't pay that for my REA catalog....

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04-15-2009, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Jim VBI was trying to be polite. I've purchased from Heritage a number of times and have always liked them, but as I said in my first post, this is slimy. I bet these auctions do not run their full course.

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04-15-2009, 11:10 AM

Posted By: Dave F I understand Jim. I've bought from them too. Just not what an upper echelon auction house would do in my opinion.

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04-15-2009, 11:17 AM

Posted By: BobI agree with you, Jim. I have dealt with Heritage several times, all good transactions but this is kind of goofy IMHO. I bet the guy who pays over $100 for the catalogue and expects the 63 Rose rookie is going to be P.O.ed. Yes, I know he should read more carefully, but I imagine that there might be some issues with "buyers" that Heritage wasn't expecting.

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04-15-2009, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Jim VBThis has all the makings of a campaign started by someone pretty low level in marketing. Honestly, it sounds like something one of my teenagers would think up. (Hey! I know how to get some "almost free" exposure for our auction!)

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04-15-2009, 11:28 AM

Posted By: Rob D.I guess we're done complaining about the new board?

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04-15-2009, 11:30 AM

Posted By: Jim VBWe go where we're told to complain.

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04-15-2009, 11:31 AM

Posted By: Dave F Rob- Yes, if you dont mind...please just complain here for now.

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04-15-2009, 11:36 AM

Posted By: JBYes....... very Bush league! That has got to violate some ebay policy (lord knows they have plenty).

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04-15-2009, 11:36 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI hope Heritage will not accept the $100 from the bidder.

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04-15-2009, 12:08 PM

Posted By: AlanAre their catalogs not free ???

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04-15-2009, 12:09 PM

Posted By: quanheritage will tell the dude not to send payment and send him a free catalog. the only problem is you might get some upset bidders thinking they got a bargain and leave a neg. other than that, if i was a consignor i'd be real happy my lots are getting extra exposure...don't see what the big deal is.

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04-15-2009, 12:44 PM

Posted By: JimmyI really try not to push it with my listings, so most of my website info is on the the about me page and a link. I have a few others things that I have tried, but this example seems overboard. I have found ways around the eBay crazy policies, but if eBay is specific on some rules they will delete the listing. The Heritage listing is borderline, I wish I could do more - advertise more of what I have outside of eBay too, but I started this hobby with eBay and respect there wishes. Jimmy

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04-15-2009, 12:48 PM

Posted By: packsWhy do you guys let yourselves get upset about this? Especially with all the eBay complaints.

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04-15-2009, 01:31 PM

Posted By: Jim VBI don't think anyone is really "upset." I do think it's surprising when a major auction house is this blatant about a questionable business practice.

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04-15-2009, 02:02 PM

Posted By: MarkIt doesn't surprise me - it's a somewhat different subject, but see thread from a few days back <a href="http://tiny.cc/Op9MU" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tiny.cc/Op9MU</a>

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04-15-2009, 02:10 PM

Posted By: leonI know you have a "thing" about ears.... but in fairness to them the Jackson look alike is not a slam dunk for it NOT being him, in my somewhat novice opinion. When I asked them about the photo they gave some compelling evidence to support their claim. It might not be him but I am not 100% sure....I am not even 70% sure it's not him...And yes, I have heard, and read, all sides of the argument. As for this marketing of their auction, if I am not mistaking they have done this ebay listing type advertising many times before. If I were a consignor I would be happy. I also don't think they will take someone's $100 for a catalog, when it's an obvious mistake the bidder is making. Yes, they have a banner on this site but I am being as unbiased as I can in my response here.....best regards

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04-15-2009, 02:14 PM

Posted By: Rob D.Well, I don't know about advertising, but you know those Somali pirates? I heard they fly a Heritage Auctions flag on their boats.

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04-15-2009, 02:16 PM

Posted By: MarkThey have no truly compelling evidence it's Jackson - if so let them present it. Actually all they need do is find one confirmed photo of Jackson with "small ears" like the guy in the photo they are presenting - from any angle, distance - whatever they want. They won't because they can't - non exist. As to me having a "thing" about ears - I'm in good company. You can include the CIA, FBI, the Illinois State police...etc. A bit of education is a good thing - a good place to start is: "Photo Fakery", by D. A. Brigioni, founder of the CIA's Photo Interpretation Center,Brassey Publications, 1999. BTW - I still like you Leon.

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04-15-2009, 02:29 PM

Posted By: RhysI had all my ebay auctions ended last week because I listed my website name www.prewarsports.com within the text of my listing and appearantly that is so bad they will shut you down. How is it that what I did was so far against the rules they resort to that but others can basically use ebay as free advertising for their sites? I love ebay, and I hate ebay both at the same time.

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04-15-2009, 02:33 PM

Posted By: Dave FRhys I don't believe these listings will run their full terms.

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04-15-2009, 02:49 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethAccording to this site, he played in Westwood, NJ in 1922. <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com/joepics4.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com/joepics4.htm</a>

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04-15-2009, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Jim VBMr. Van Brunt, Thank you for your email. While I appreciate your opinion, I respectfully disagree. Heritage has become the worlds largest collectibles auctioneer because we actively seek out every available bidder to ensure that our consignors realize the highest possible prices for their lots. We used to list our entire auctions on eBay when they offered a Live bidding format. Unfortunately, eBay Live has closed and this is no longer an option. The increased visibility of these current offerings on eBay will ultimately result in larger settlement checks for our consignors. Of course, I do want to make it clear that we will not require any eBay bidder that may miss the very prominent text stating that the auction is for an auction catalog only to follow through with payment. I hope this clarifies our position on the matter, and I thank you for your interest. Regards, Chris Ivy

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04-15-2009, 03:01 PM

Posted By: JimBSeems reasonable to me. I don't understand what the big deal is. If I was a consignor, I would be very happy about it. No harm, no foul IMHO. JimB

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04-15-2009, 03:03 PM

Posted By: John H.It's a bizarre listing and quite deceptive for anyone who doesn't pay close attention to the item description. I agree that, if anything, it should definitely be a "Buy It Now" rather than an open bid. I hope that, to be ethical, they cancel any listings that go over the minimum bid. Edit: I sent them a message. The Pete Rose rookie card catalog is at $107 and rising.

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04-15-2009, 03:41 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanHeritage wants it both ways: they don't want to make a sale to anyone who misreads the auction description and thinks he's buying a card - yet they want to mislead people in an effort to get them to these listings for the auction catalogs. As stated before, why not just use a BIN price? Perhaps because an open-ended auction would cause certain bidders to believe they are buying the card and not the catalog?

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04-15-2009, 03:51 PM

Posted By: Chris BlandNo publicity is bad publicity - Heritage is getting just what they want out of these "auctions" - people looking at them and talking about them...

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04-15-2009, 03:58 PM

Posted By: Robert KlevensThey are basically advertising their current auction on Ebay which I can't believe is allowed. I doubt these auctions will continue much longer.

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04-15-2009, 04:18 PM

Posted By: George HC"Heritage has become the worlds largest collectibles auctioneer" LMAO

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04-15-2009, 04:21 PM

Posted By: leonWhat other collectibles auction company has done over $700 million in the last year? They are the #1 coin auction house in the world, I believe....

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04-15-2009, 04:27 PM

Posted By: Dave F With all due respect Leon- Cant' we leave it at the cards? I personally don't care what auction house has done millions of dollars in coins, barbie dolls, or bottle tops. They are hardly the top "sportscard" auctioneer in the country.

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04-15-2009, 04:28 PM

Posted By: Jim VB"No publicity is bad publicity. " Chris, I know this is an old adage, but it is decidely, not true for any business that relies on the public for their survival. It may work fine for a "celebrities" like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, but it's not for everyone.

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04-15-2009, 04:38 PM

Posted By: JimmyChris, you do make a good point about the eBay live auctions not being available anymore and we our not saying it was wrong what you are doing. maybe just more surprised that you have been able to do this with eBay and all the restrictions. I have tried many types of scenarios and ideas - some have work and others have not. There just needs to be a little bit more level playing field with these kinds of issues on eBay. Good Luck Jimmy

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04-15-2009, 04:42 PM

Posted By: leonI was only pointing out the statement that Heritage made was in fact true. "LMAO" at a true statement is sort of paradoxical....(is that a word?)....regards edited spelling...thanks Barry

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04-15-2009, 04:47 PM

Posted By: barrysloateEdited as my work is done. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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04-15-2009, 04:51 PM

Posted By: Rob D.The new/old board had spell-check ...

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04-15-2009, 05:12 PM

Posted By: Claude(Spell check) back in the time it was called a teacher but they don't do that anymore, do they?

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04-15-2009, 05:21 PM

Posted By: Jim VBSomeone forwarded this link to me. <a href="http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-catalog.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-catalog.html</a> Seems pretty clear that the Heritage listings are in violation of Ebay policy. But my point was more than that. Every auction house should go far out of their way to avoid anything that even comes close to the appearance of impropriety.

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04-15-2009, 05:49 PM

Posted By: JimBNo offense, but I find this discussion absolutely ridiculous. With all the real problems in the world (or even in this hobby), why one would bother getting all stirred up over Heritage promoting their auction via Ebay seems like a complete waste of time and brain cells. JimB

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04-15-2009, 06:05 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthJim, I guess you must exclusively consign cards to auction houses when you sell. For the rest of us who do sell on ebay this represents a double standard. So I am not so sure this is so ridiculous to address. Certainly there have been far more ridiculous threads but I don't recall you posting twice on those threads. Are you getting banner ad money too from Heritage????? Greg

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04-15-2009, 06:12 PM

Posted By: Rob D.If we're going to use the "real problems in the world" as a measuring stick of what's appropriate to post about, then just shut down the board.

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04-15-2009, 06:13 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethCatalog Sales Listings of catalogs from which buyers may directly order are not permitted. Old and collectible catalogs (from which you can no longer place an order) are permissible. However, the title or description may not contain extensive lists of specific items included in the catalog. Sellers wishing to list these catalogs should review the Additional Information section below and adhere to its policies. Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including: Listing cancellation Limits on account privileges Account suspension Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings Loss of PowerSeller status EDIT TO ADD I suppose one could argue no violation because one cannot "directly order" from the Heritage catalog.

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04-15-2009, 06:53 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthThis is an email from ebay that was just forwarded to me from someone who reported the 101 Heritage listings: We will thoroughly review the listing(s) you have reported for violations of our Listing Policies. In order to keep eBay a safe and fun place to trade, we often rely on members like you to bring such listing violations to our attention. In light of our privacy policy, we cannot share with you any action taken by eBay with respect to this listing. If we determine that the listing violates eBay policy, we may: 1. Send the seller an informational alert; 2. Remove the listing; or 3. Suspend the seller. Account suspensions are usually reserved for those sellers that continuously disregard policy. If you would like to review our Listing Policies in more detail, please visit: <a href="http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-ov.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-ov.html</a> Thank you for your report. Regards, The eBay Community Watch Team

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04-15-2009, 07:12 PM

Posted By: quanok not real world problems (because who cares about the real world here)...but in the auction world where we were being charged $75 for the right to bid, hidden reserves, shill bidding, house bidding up to meet reserves, prepping and enhancing of material by auction houses before sending them in for grading, outright alteration and reparation of material w/o disclosing it, misrepresentation of material bordering on fraud and ignoring the winner when he brought it up...i'm glad we're drawing the sand here today! i'm glad there's an ebay watchdog group to look out for ebay's best interest...when you send your complaint to heritage do also cc that email to you.are.being.taken.advantage.of!!!!!!@ebay.com so they can review all those auctions and shut them down pronto...because they are an eyesore and represent what is wrong with our hobby today.

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04-15-2009, 07:24 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethQuan, those other problems are too depressing, especially the prepping/enhancing/alteration, if we thought about them enough and acknowledged the extent to which they likely were actually taking place, we wouldn't be able to buy cards any more. So it's more practical to focus on the little stuff.

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04-15-2009, 07:44 PM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusHello world, this is business, American style. If I ran Heritage, I would do the exact same thing; as would I suspect those who run eBay. I think its extraordinarly naive to believe this is inappropriate. edited a typo

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04-15-2009, 10:12 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIt's nothing new. REA, Sotheby's and others have done the same.

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04-16-2009, 03:30 AM

Posted By: Dave F REA has done this David? When was this?

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04-16-2009, 04:48 AM

Posted By: barrysloateCorey- ebay has rules and what Heritage did is against those rules. They simply worded and presented it in such a way as to hopefully slip pass ebay's search. So I will disagree with your statement. Ebay may ultimately shut it down.

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04-16-2009, 05:22 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethFor all we know they cleared it with ebay in advance. Literally it may not violate the policy as it is not a catalog from which a customer can "order directly" although the intent of the policy as a whole seems to be to distinguish between catalogs of historical interest and current ones. I find the "Jackson" photo to be more of an issue.

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04-16-2009, 05:28 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIf it were okay to list a catalog for sale Heritage could have done that in a simple straightforward manner. The convoluted way they presented it suggests they were trying to circumvent the rules.

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04-16-2009, 05:30 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethBarry not necessarily, the way they did it (listing individual cards) is far more likely to generate "hits" than just listing a catalog.

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04-16-2009, 05:34 AM

Posted By: barrysloatePeter- don't you think there are more than a fair number of people who looked at Heritage's listing and got confused? Also, it is against ebay rules to do what they did. If that's a valid advertising campaign I think it is a poor one. My vote is this was carefully planned to list the catalog for sale without ebay figuring it out.

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04-16-2009, 05:40 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI guess we'll see if ebay takes down the listings.

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04-16-2009, 05:49 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAnything is possible but I say they were trying to slip one past the goalie.

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04-16-2009, 05:55 AM

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusBarry, That may or may not be true. But the gist of the complaints on this thread pertained to the bush league tactics of what Heritage was doing, not that it might have violated eBay's rules. And that was the focus I was responding to. And I will reiterate my point that it is naive to expect any profit-seeking auction house to have done anything differently if they felt by doing so they would negatively impact their prices realized. And to go further, is this action any more repugnant that the action of an auction house puffing their catalog offerings to the point of arguably crossing the line to outward misrepresentation? You and I have discussed that on a number of occassions. We abhor such practices, but grudgingly admit that with some auction houses it is a common occurrence.

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04-16-2009, 05:59 AM

Posted By: barrysloateCorey- no auction house would ever dare do that.

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04-16-2009, 06:00 AM

Posted By: Dave FCorey- You say it's naive to think any profit seeking auction house would not do this, you really feel REA would stoop to this? I know there are many auction houses that do things that I shake my head about...but, i'm asking about one in particular that I personally put head and shoulders above the rest. Heritage states themselves that they have the largest customer base of anyone..so why the need to do this? Why they are at it why not put flyers on everyone's mailboxes to?

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04-16-2009, 06:59 AM

Posted By: JimmyBarry, I guess I was just trying to be nice to Heritage on my last post, but you make some good points. I do not sell as much as you do, but at some point I will be doing more both on eBay and off. These are the kinds of issues that do bother me and have I been on eBay a long time. I really try not to go crazy on this board, but with my experiences with some of the auction houses and the news I hear just disappoints me more about the hobby. This hobby is intended to be fun and enjoyable weather you are making money or not. Certainly there are some aspects to the hobby which are necessary to keep business going, but sometimes you have to question about what maybe going on in the hobby today. I really try to keep it simple and straight forward when it comes to my website, shows and eBay. Jimmy

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04-16-2009, 07:15 AM

Posted By: AlanAlso, keep in mind that this is the time of year (April-May) this particular Heritage sports auction has to go up against at least REA & Legendary (Mastro) major auctions for collectors' money. Remember, Leon's thread about "Don't forget about Heritage"....

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04-16-2009, 07:20 AM

Posted By: James FeaginDon't forget about Huggins & Scott either.....sorry for the shameless plug <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> James

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04-16-2009, 07:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJimmy- Toward the end of last year I was selling some consignments on ebay and getting ready to start my November catalog auction. I thought it would be a great idea to post my website address on each ebay listing and steer more traffic over there. But I asked a couple of people with more ebay experience than me and I was told ebay will shut me down if they catch it. And I certainly couldn't risk that as how do I tell a consignor I can no longer sell their material because I was shut down? So when I see Heritage's listing I have to think they knew that too but were more clever than I was. They simply found a way to beat the system.

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04-16-2009, 07:29 AM

Posted By: Jim VBCorey said: "...this is business, American style." I don't find that to be an acceptable excuse for a practice that is ethically lax. I do agree that it is relatively minor compared to things we see from some other auction houses. This isn't a deal breaker for me. Failure to pay consignors, card tampering, shill bidding, fake sales, and many more common practices are much worse.

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04-16-2009, 07:45 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAgreed. This is a minor transgression, but since we seem to dissect everything, this is fair game.

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04-16-2009, 07:50 AM

Posted By: John H.I could care less that they have listed their auction catalog. It's strange and somewhat misleading for people who don't or can't read but, all in all, it's unimportant to me. What bothers me is that they didn't list them as "Buy It Now" and they have left the auctions open to bid for those people who think they're bidding on a Pete Rose rookie card rather than a catalog.

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04-16-2009, 08:03 AM

Posted By: Red"Jimmy- Toward the end of last year I was selling some consignments on ebay and getting ready to start my November catalog auction. I thought it would be a great idea to post my website address on each ebay listing and steer more traffic over there. But I asked a couple of people with more ebay experience than me and I was told ebay will shut me down if they catch it. And I certainly couldn't risk that as how do I tell a consignor I can no longer sell their material because I was shut down?" Promoting your own auction along with a website address was something that was well known to be against Ebay rules. You were advised on how to change and word your message so it would not be against Ebay rules. Using Ebay to promote your business is a very wise thing to do. It's advertising just like an ad in SCD only it's seen by a lot more fresh faces. It's foolish not to push your nearly free "advertising" to the maximum allowed by Ebay.

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04-16-2009, 09:05 AM

Posted By: T206Collector<<It's foolish not to push your nearly free "advertising" to the maximum allowed by Ebay.>> I think this is akin to spamming email. I don't think its illegal or particularly malevolent. I think its somewhat adolescent and goofy and smacks of desperate marketing. Ebay is already filled with this so-called "advertising" and it further dilutes the ability of collectors to get to actual cards on ebay. If everyone that promotes a business uses ebay in this fashion, then pretty soon ebay stops being at all useful for its intended purpose. Here's my next Net54 thread: "Authentic T206 Wagner -- Cheap!" Text of message: "I wish I could find one. In the meantime, I'm eating at Sloppy Joes, on the corner of 34th and 2nd." Visit<a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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04-16-2009, 09:10 AM

Posted By: ClaudeIt is easy to understand why they don't have a "Buy it Now" they don't try to sell the catalog they are advertising their auction, the Buy it Now would stop the advertising if somebody use it.

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04-16-2009, 09:17 AM

Posted By: Mark FimoffYeah - another comment on the Heritage "Jackson" photo. Apparently when it was cirulating in 2005 - it appeared as shown below -what's that, a 1919 date! Wasn't Joe otherwise busy in 1919? Why is this date not shown in the current auction ? <img src="http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/c3f4cedc.jpg" alt="[linked image]">[/IMG]

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04-16-2009, 10:08 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaHey! Look! Isn't that Charles Comiskey hiding under that hat right next to Shoeless Joe? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif">

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04-16-2009, 10:38 AM

Posted By: John H."It is easy to understand why they don't have a "Buy it Now" they don't try to sell the catalog they are advertising their auction, the Buy it Now would stop the advertising if somebody use it." Of course they're trying to sell their catalog, Claude. That's why they have an opening bid price on it. They want to sell the catalog to people that they hope will use it to bid on their auctions. The logical mistake they are making is NOT having a "Buy It Now" price on the catalog because I don't think they really want people to bid one of their catalogs up to $113 which is where the Rose rookie catalog is now. I haven't received a response to my email to them.

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04-16-2009, 10:38 AM

Posted By: JimBGreg (BOTN) wrote: "Jim, I guess you must exclusively consign cards to auction houses when you sell. For the rest of us who do sell on ebay this represents a double standard. So I am not so sure this is so ridiculous to address. Certainly there have been far more ridiculous threads but I don't recall you posting twice on those threads. Are you getting banner ad money too from Heritage????? Greg " Greg, I don't know what I ever did to offend you, but you regularly take offense at my comments on this board. As for the enormous losses your Ebay business is incurring, why don't you just inform us all of your Ebay names so we can be aware of them and bid accordingly. JimB

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04-16-2009, 03:25 PM

Posted By: Mark FimoffWhat's so incredible here is that on close examination - you can see that the current Heritage Mark Americans photo is physically the same photo in the same mat as the one circulated in 2005 - and someone has done a very poor job of trying to eradicate the date! <img src="http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/47a565f5.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> <img src="http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss259/bmarlowe1/82696865.jpg" alt="[linked image]">

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04-16-2009, 03:49 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthYIKES!!!! Guess that settles this case. Hope Heritage does the right thing here.

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04-16-2009, 03:53 PM

Posted By: Dave F At what point if your the CEO, President, or heck the Customer Service Director do you actually come on these boards and say something? Anything? Too many of these auction houses lately have had things pointed out on this board...and the result is always silence.

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04-16-2009, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Rob D.I'm sure they're not hiding, Dave.

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04-16-2009, 04:13 PM

Posted By: George H. CounterJust another case of restoration and stabilization 'a la mastro'? <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE</a>

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04-17-2009, 10:52 AM

Posted By: MarkFrom Heritage: "Circa 1922 Barnstorming Cabinet Photograph with Chicago Black Sox.... This lot has been withdrawn from this auction. Bids are no longer accepted and previous bids are cancelled." I can only say that if they had some competence in evaluating the content of photos like this - they never would have accepted it in the first place. I appreciate that most auction houses are dependent on the honesty of their consigners and can't maintain a staff that can expertly evaluate content - it may just be too small a part of their business. But still, this one was ridiculous.

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04-17-2009, 11:02 AM

Posted By: leonIn the end doing the right thing is most important, at least to me. Scott and I have made a mistake or two in our auctions and we rectified them immediately upon learning of them. I would guess just about every single auction house has, and will, make mistakes. We are human.....

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04-17-2009, 11:05 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, You make a great point. After Mastronet talked about taking creases out of cards and Rob sent out his famous letter(s) I invited a number of auction houses to come on the boards and state their policies on crease removal, bidding on their own auctions and a number of other topics. The result was a resounding silence except from a couple of smaller other auction houses that I did not ask. In fact, a number of posters accuseds me of a witch hunt or something to that effect. Not a lot of other businesses that I can think of where companies will not speak to their companies policies. Certainly all were aware of the post and none chose to respond. Jim

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04-17-2009, 11:07 AM

Posted By: John H,They finally responded saying that they will not accept payment from anyone who doesn't realize that they won a catalog. This scheme wasn't very well thought out.

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04-17-2009, 11:11 AM

Posted By: MarkI'm still waiting for my thank you note from Chris Ivy (:

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04-17-2009, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Jim VBJohn H, Actually Heritage has been upfront about that from the beginning. Chris Ivy said that in his response to me, which I posted earlier in this thread (April 15, 2009 4:51 PM). I agree, it was poorly thought out. I also agree that it is a good sign that they pulled the other auction. I wish all auction companies would be more proactive on this kind of thing, but realize it is incredibly difficult, especially in the world of memorabilia. With cards, they have all come to rely on third party grading (and we all have varying opinions on how well that works.) but memorabilia is still living in the wild west days.

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04-17-2009, 11:21 AM

Posted By: Jim VBMark, My second note to Chris went unanswered except for the auto-response that said he was out of the office until 4/21.

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04-17-2009, 11:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAmong the more dangerous areas in the memorabilia market is photo identification. It's impossible to count the number of times I have seen players misidentified in a vintage photograph. And in virtually every instance, a nondescript player is mistaken for a baseball immortal. It's really all about the money, and how the presence of a famous ballplayer dramatically increases the photo's value.

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04-17-2009, 11:32 AM

Posted By: Mark FimoffHey Jim VB, Chris may be out of the office til 4/21 - but this morning someone there decided to pull the photo. Anyway, I really was just kidding about a thank you note. I first contacted Heritage about this back on 3/30 - based on my own analysis posted on Net54 at that time - but they were adamant the photo was good (without explanation). The problems were obvious to me and several others (who really are experts), even without knowledge of the date erasure. I also recently contacted Robert Lifson at REA about another photo that had already been sold - I must say the response was entirely different - mature and intelligent and with a clear ability to understand a photo analysis once presented. He immediately proceeded to offer the buyer a refund. I will be posting info on this photo soon - it's quite interesting.

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04-17-2009, 06:39 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethIt certainly didn't hurt JP's business, or Brian's, or anyone else's not to engage on this forum. I think they probably figure that as long as they have what we want, they have more to lose than gain by coming on here and engaging. Most things have a tendency to blow over and the next time they have something we want all is forgiven or forgotten.

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04-20-2009, 10:38 PM

Posted By: Ron DiamondHeritage send me a T200 Premium with a missing corner(it was there in their catalog) and refused to make me whole! They are so big, they don't give a damn if you live or die. Such is life for those stupid enough to trust a company so large. I used to be. Never again. There are too many other trustworthy companies(Rob Ed Auctions, Mile High...)

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04-21-2009, 12:37 AM

Posted By: Kenny ColeI think Peter's analysis is entirely correct. Say nothing, do nothing, and people bid because, as has been said several times in another thread, the stuff trumps everything. It all blows over, money is made, and all is good. It seems to me that, whatever auction you are bidding on, you need to have some level of confidence in the integrity of the seller. If you don't have that and bid anyway, then IMO, you have no room to bitch when things go south. It isn't hard -- you bid to your comfort level and no more. If you don't have much comfort with the seller, you bid less. If you think you won't get screwed, you bid more if its a card you want. This "I'll bid ln on a maybe-seller anyway because stuff trumps all else" is great until the winner doesn't get what they thought they were going to get. Then I suspect the tone will change. I suggest that if someone chooses to bid on a "stuff trumps everything" auction offered by a suspect seller, they pretty well deserve whatever they get. That's my two cents. Kenny Cole

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04-21-2009, 05:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, Exactly right. Thats why we do not see Doug on anymore either I would guess. Stuff should not trump everything--stay away from the bad guys. Let consignors see they are getting less for their material and positive changes would occur. Jim

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04-21-2009, 06:49 AM

Posted By: Jimmyagain, not something I like to hear, but it does seem to be happening more sorry about the card you mention I even went out of my way to say a few things to support them in this tread. Chris are you still looking at this post? Jimmy

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05-01-2009, 08:42 AM

Posted By: MarkWhy is this thread absent from the new board?

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05-01-2009, 08:51 AM

Posted By: leon There is absolutely no reason this isn't over there except that Mike M didn't scrape this thread....and move it. If it worries you so much just start a new one over there.....then you can be all giddy and happy again.