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Archive
01-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Bryon</b><p><br>I posted this over on the CU boards last week, but wanted to throw it out here as well. And this may be old news to some, but it was a revelation to me when I recently found a pattern in the T218 cards that seems to break the set into three groups... groups that I suspect are the three different series in which the cards were issued... with 53 cards in the 1st, 49 cards in the 2nd , and 51 in the 3rd... It'd be nice if the splits matched up better with the &quot;51 to 100&quot; notation on the back of the Series 2 cards, but the fact that there are 153 cards in the set would seem to indicate that the issuer wasn't married to the number 50.<br><br>I believe that while Mecca ads can be found on cards from all three series, Hassan ads are only found on cards from Series 1 and 2 (a total of 102 cards). So, if you have a card with a Hassan ad and there's no &quot;Series #2&quot; notation on the back, it's from Series 1. All 53 cards in Series 1 with Mecca ads have the phrase &quot;Champion Athletes and Prize Fighter Series&quot;. Mecca cards from Series 2 have the same phrase and include the &quot;Series #2&quot; notation. On the 51 cards in Series 3, the phrase is turned around a bit, beginning with &quot;Series of...&quot; Also, all but three of the cards in Series 3 (Thure Johansson, J.J. McEntee, and Edward Payson Weston) have a black border framing the image... and this series includes all the golfers, bowlers, billiards players and aviators plus 24 athletes and boxers. And it seems pretty clear this is the third series because of the dates mentioned in the text. I can't find mention of any events past 1909 on Series 1 cards, there are a few 1910 references on Series 2 cards, and more on Series 3... J.B. Moisant's card notes he was killed on the last day of 1910.<br><br>Lastly, after going through all the scans I could find, I'm pretty confident that Tolstoi backs exist only on Series 2 cards, though they don't have the &quot;Series #2&quot; notation like their Mecca and Hassan parallels.<br><br>So, the checklists by series would be...<br><br><br>Series 1<br><br>Platt Adams<br>Dan Ahearne<br>Abe Attell<br>Chas. J. Bacon Jr<br>Sailor Burke<br>Robert Cloughen<br>Tom Collins<br>Johnny Coulon<br>James Crowley<br>C.M. Daniels (seated)<br>Jem Driscoll<br>Jack Eller<br>Ray Ewry<br>John Flanagan (full length)<br>R.E. Frizelle<br>Jimmy Gardner<br>S.P. Gilles<br>Andrew Glarner<br>Budd Goodwin<br>H.J. Handy<br>Harry Hillman<br>Battling Hurley<br>Dick Hyland<br>Frank C. Irons<br>James J. Jeffries<br>Jack Johnson (side)<br>Stanley Ketchell<br>Bert Keyes<br>Walter Lee<br>Harry Lewis<br>Willie Lewis<br>Lou Manley<br>Johnny Marto<br>Packey McFarland<br>Phil McGovern<br>M.J. McGrath<br>Owen Moran<br>Tommy Murphy<br>Battling Nelson<br>Thomas O'Callaghan<br>Paul PIlgrim<br>Harry Porter<br>W.C. Robbins<br>Lawson Robertson<br>Melvin W. Sheppard (side)<br>Martin Sheridan<br>Jim Stewart<br>Jack Twin Sullivan<br>Mike Twin Sullivan<br>C.D. Trubenbach<br>Eddie Walsh<br>Billy West<br>Ad Wolgast<br><br>Series 2<br><br>Patsy Brannigan<br>Knock-out Brown<br>Walter Bursch<br>Young Corbett<br>Leach Cross<br>C.M. Daniels (head to waist)<br>Young Donahoe<br>W.C. Fielding<br>John Flanagan (head to waist)<br>Joe Gans<br>George Gardiner<br>H.E. Gissing<br>Abe Goodman<br>Jack Goodman<br>Charley Griffin<br>J.L. Hartranft<br>Harry Haywood Jr.<br>Joe Jeanette<br>James Jeffries<br>Harry Jensen<br>Jack Johnson (front)<br>Joseph Jordan<br>Al Kaufman<br>W.J. Keating<br>W.J. Kramer<br>Sam Langford<br>Young Loughrey<br>Emilo Lunghi<br>Honey Mellody<br>Frankie Neil<br>Fighting Dick Nelson<br>Young Nitchie<br>Smythe Northridge<br>George J. Obermeyer<br>Philadelphia Jack O'Brien<br>Tommy O'Keefe<br>Billy Papke<br>Frank Riley<br>J.A. Ruddy<br>UNK Russell<br>Harry Sedley Jr.<br>Melvin W. Sheppard (front)<br>C.C. Steinert<br>Harry Stone<br>James P. Sullivan<br>Clarence B. Tippett<br>Jimmy Walsh<br>R.P. Williams<br>Harold A. Wilson<br><br>Series 3<br><br>Matty Baldwin<br>Harry Cline<br>Frankie Conley<br>Albert Cutler (playing)<br>Albert Cutler (portrait)<br>John Daly<br>Alfredo De Oro<br>Al Delmont<br>Calvin Demarest<br>Dave Deshler<br>Findlay Douglas<br>Alex Dunbar<br>Charles Eyton<br>Charles K. Hamilton<br>Johnny Hayes<br>William Heins<br>F. Herreshoff<br>Jack Hobens<br>Hans Holmer<br>Willie Hoppe(playing)<br>Willie Hoppe (portrait)<br>Arch Hoxsey<br>Thomas Hueston<br>Thure Johansson<br>Lee R. Johns<br>Ralph Johnstone<br>Jerome Keogh<br>Abel Kiviat<br>Frank Klaus<br>Patsey Kline<br>Gusta Ljungstrom<br>George Low<br>J.J. McEntee<br>Fred Meadows<br>J.B. Moisant<br>Ora Morningstar (playing)<br>Ora Morningstar (portrait)<br>Gil Nicholls<br>Tommy O'Toole<br>James Rector<br>Glenn Riddell<br>Percy Sellen<br>Alex Smith<br>Johnny Summers (seated)<br>Johnny Summers (standing)<br>George Sutton (playing)<br>George Sutton (portrait)<br>E.J. Sweeney<br>Fred Welsh<br>Cowboy Charles Weston<br>Edward Payson Weston<br><br>So, there it is. If anyone has additional info on this, I'd love to hear it.<br><br>

Archive
01-09-2009, 10:10 AM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>I have been working on a detailed checklist of the cards with some other collectors for a while now. <br><br>W/r/t Johnson, I have and have seen Johnson in both poses in both series. I own a Johnson front and a Johnson side both with Mecca series 2 backs. I also own a number of Tolstoi back Johnsons, all of which are front pose. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Archive
01-09-2009, 10:32 AM
Posted By: <b>Bryon</b><p><br>Well, those Johnson cards are a real problem for my theory, except for the Tolstoi thing.... Hmmm. Back to the drawing board, I guess.<br><br>I'd love to see your checklist on this.<br><br>

Archive
01-09-2009, 12:00 PM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>I will post a link to it. <br><br>In the meantime, does your list represent actual cards you've checklisted? <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Archive
01-09-2009, 12:08 PM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Mike Sullivan is available as a Tolstoi card and in series 1 and series 2. <br><br>Both Summers are available as Mecca Series 1, as is Jimmy Walsh, Matty Baldwin, <br><br>Gans is available in both series and in Tolstoi.<br><br>Those are off the top of my head; I'm sure there are more. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Archive
01-09-2009, 02:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Bryon</b><p><br>Yeah, I put my checklist together by going through every card of my own and every back scan I could find to make sure I couldn't find one that blew the pattern. (One complete set on the PSA registry includes back scans on all the cards.) But obviously you have a number of cards that don't fit my mold... I'm particularly surprised to hear that you have a Matty Baldwin that doesn't have the &quot;Series of...&quot; phrase on the back. Could you post a scan that one for me? I'd really appreciate it.<br><br>

Archive
01-09-2009, 04:27 PM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>I will have to dig out the card and scan it. May take a few days.<br><br>Do you have yours broken down by mfg as well as series? I am cataloging them that way. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Archive
01-20-2009, 03:43 PM
Posted By: <b>DaveW</b><p> Very interesting. Also, how do the C52 cards fit in? They are basically<br>the T218 cards but with numbers and no ad back. All the ones I have are in<br>your Series 1. Does anybody have the complete list of those cards? It might<br>be a good place to start since they were probably just one series of T218s<br>that were sent off to the Imperial Tobacco Co.<br>- Dave<br>

Archive
01-20-2009, 04:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Bryon</b><p><br>The PSA population report of C52s includes cards from all three series of my hypothosized and apparently inaccurate T218 breakdown. They list numbers for the individual cards from 1 through 50 AND nos. 69, 88 and 96. Weird. Someone also posted a No. 63 (Nicholls) on the CU boards not long ago.<br><br><br><br>From PSA....<br><br><br><br>1Jack Johnson<br><br>2James J. Jeffries<br><br>3Clarence B. Tippett<br><br>4James P. Sullivan<br><br>5Walter Bursch <br><br>6Unk Russell<br><br>7Frank Riley <br><br>8H.E. Gissing <br><br>9James Crowley <br><br>10S.P. Gilles <br><br>11Andrew Glarner<br><br>12Battling Hurley <br><br>13Melvin W. Sheppard <br><br>14Lou Manley<br><br>15Ray C. Ewry<br><br>16Frank C. Irons <br><br>17Jim Stewart<br><br>18Robert Cloughen<br><br>19W.C. Robbins<br><br>20Thomas O'callaghan <br><br>21Harry Hillman<br><br>22Martin Sheridan<br><br>23C.M. Daniels <br><br>24Johnny Coulon<br><br>25Platt Adams<br><br>26George J. Obermeyer<br><br>27Tom Collins <br><br>28Lawson Robertson<br><br>29Paul Pilgrim<br><br>30Jack Sullivan <br><br>31Jack Eller<br><br>32John Flanagan <br><br>33Emilo Lunghi <br><br>34Jem Driscoll <br><br>35Eddie Walsh<br><br>36Richard Frizelle <br><br>37Chas J. Bacon Jr.<br><br>38Dan Ahearne<br><br>39Owen Moran <br><br>40Willie Lewis <br><br>41Billy West<br><br>42Johnny Marto <br><br>43Jimmy Gardner<br><br>44Harry Lewis<br><br>45Stanley Ketchell<br><br>46Phil Mcgovern <br><br>47Walter Lee <br><br>48Abe Attell<br><br>49Sailor Burke<br><br>50Jimmy Walsh<br><br>69Frank Klaus <br><br>88Harry Cline<br><br>96William Heins<br><br><br><br>

Archive
01-20-2009, 05:18 PM
Posted By: <b>DaveW</b><p> That's strange. Most of the cards you list match my list except I have<br>#3 as Tommy Murphy, #8 as Packy McFarland and #33 as MJ McGrath. I wonder<br>if the PSA list is wrong or if they have some duplicate numbers. Where is<br>Boxingcardman when you need him?<br>- Dave<br>

Archive
01-20-2009, 09:56 PM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Well, not. But I can confirm Jack Johnson as #1; I have one. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

GasHouseGang
07-31-2011, 04:52 PM
I wanted to dredge up this old post, because one of our members (Boxingcardman) mentioned having a checklist for the T218's. I have a "set" that's a mixture of Hassan and Mecca backs. I was just wondering what the checklist for these actually looks like, and whether I just have parts of two different sets mixed together or if I have a set?

DaveW
08-25-2011, 04:47 PM
I wanted to dredge up this old post, because one of our members (Boxingcardman) mentioned having a checklist for the T218's. I have a "set" that's a mixture of Hassan and Mecca backs. I was just wondering what the checklist for these actually looks like, and whether I just have parts of two different sets mixed together or if I have a set?

GasHouse - I'm glad you dredged up this post. I love the T218 cards and have tried to come up with a checklist also. I never saw the one from Boxingcardman, but if he reads this I'd love to see it. My checklist agrees with the original poster's checklist about 95%. For your set, most people would consider the set complete with both Hassan and Mecca backs. Many of the cards (about 1/3 of the set) only come with a Mecca back, so you couldn't have a complete Hassan set of 153 cards. You could have a complete Mecca set. Use the checklist that was provided in the first post. Bryon - if you're still out there, contact me and we can compare lists.
- Dave

Griffins
08-25-2011, 06:17 PM
I've got a spreadsheet with the backs listed that I have in my set, does anyone else have the same? would be easy to consolidate it to see what is out there

Exhibitman
08-25-2011, 08:35 PM
I can confirm these cards as existing:

Mecca, Fact. 649 Attell
Mecca, Fact. 649 Baldwin, Matty
Hassan II, fact. 649 Brannigan, Patsy
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Brown
Mecca, Fact. 30 Burke
Hassan, fact. 649 Coulon
Mecca, Fact. 30 Coulon
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Cross
Hassan II, fact. 649 Donahoe
Mecca, Fact. 649 Driscoll
Mecca, Fact. 649 Gans
Mecce II, Fact. 649 Gans
Hassan, Fact. 649 Gardner
Hassan, Fact. 30 Gardiner, Geo.
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Goodman, Abe
Mecca II, Fact. 30 Goodman, Jack
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Griffin, Charley
Mecca, fact 649 Hurley
Mecca, Fact. 30 Hyland
Mecca II, fact. 649 Jeannette
Mecca Jeffries fighting
Mecca II, Fact. 30 Jeffries-portrait
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Johnson-front
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Johnson-side
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Kaufman
Mecca, Fact. 649 Ketchell
Mecca, Fact. 649 Keyes
Mecca, Fact. 30 Kline
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Langford
Mecca, Fact. 649 Lewis, Harry
Hassan, fact. 649 Lewis, Willie
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Loughrey
Hassah, Fact. 30 Marto
Hassan, fact. 649 McFarland
Mecca, Fact. 649 McGovern
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Mellody
Mecca, fact. 649 Murphy
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Neil
Hassan, Fact. 649 Nelson, Battling
Mecca II, Fact. 30 Nelson, Fighting Dick
Mecca II, Fact. 30 Nitchie
Mecca, Fact. 649 O'Brien
Mecca, Fact. 649 O'Toole
Hassan II, fact. 649 Papke
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Russell
Mecca II, Fact. 649 Stone
Mecca, Fact. 649 Sullivan, Jack "Twin"
Hassan, Fact. 30 Sullivan, Mike (Twin)
Mecca, Fact. 649 Summers-bag
Mecca, fact. 30 Summers-rowing
Mecca, fact. 30 Walsh, Eddie
Mecca, Fact. 649 Walsh. Jimmy
Mecca, Fact. 30 Welsh, Fred
Mecca, Fact. 649 West
Mecca, Fact. 649 Wolgast
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Brown
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Corbett
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Donahoe
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Gans
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Gardiner, Geo.
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Goodman, Abe
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Goodman, Jack
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Griffin
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Jeannette
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Jeffries portrait
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Johnson-front
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Kaufman
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Langford
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Mellody
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Nelson, Fighting Dick
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Nitchie
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 O'Keefe
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Papke
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Stone
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Sullivan, Mike (Twin)
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Walsh. Jimmy
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Hartranft
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Sheppard
Tolstoi, Fact. 30 Williams

DaveW
08-26-2011, 12:59 PM
Anthony and Adam,
Thanks for replying. Maybe if we all combine our data we can figure out how all these backs fit together. Anthony - I do have a list of all the cards I own as well as many I've seen on EBay or other sites. I'd love to exchange lists with you sometime. Adam - I've added all your data to my list and most of it seems to fit pretty well. Up to now, I've looked at 1000s of cards and never seen any that had both a Mecca and Mecca II back, but 4 of your cards would break that pattern (Gans, Johnson (side view), O'Brien and Walsh). Could you check those again and verify them? I'm sure it's possible since there are cards that have both Hassan and Hassan II backs. With 153 cards and several back variations, you'd have to look at a lot of cards to get the whole picture.
I'm also taking data on the C52 set and the Tolstoi backs. It looks like only cards with Mecca II backs are in the Tolstoi set (so far).
If you guys are interested in what else I've found so far, I'd be happy to share.
Thanks,
- Dave

Exhibitman
08-26-2011, 03:17 PM
All of mine are correct.

My Gans and Walsh are Mecca I and also Tolstoi

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/websize/T218%20Tolstoi%20Gans%202009.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/websize/T218%20Tolstoi%20Walsh%202009.jpg

DaveW
08-26-2011, 04:21 PM
Thanks Adam for confirming. I believe that the OP was correct that the Tolstoi cards only came from the Mecca II series (Gans, Walsh, Johnson, O'Brien and MSullivan all seem to be in both Mecca series).

- Dave

GasHouseGang
08-26-2011, 10:35 PM
I would like to thank everyone for replying. For a while there I didn't think anyone was interested in this thread! I had the list that's in the guides, but that didn't give this level of detail. Thanks and I'll have to look at mine and see if they will add any info. I'm sure I don't have any Tolstoi backs, just Mecca and Hassan.

DaveW
08-29-2011, 01:46 PM
Anthony - I'd still like to get a copy of your spreadsheet to consolidate with mine. Of course, I'd also be happy to send you my spreadsheet if you want. I don't keep track of which factory they are from, just the back types. - Dave

Griffins
08-29-2011, 03:37 PM
Dave- pm me your email and I"ll send it to you tonite.
I put factories on there as well, figuring more info is better than less, but it's not critical.

Griffins
08-29-2011, 03:39 PM
If anyone would like a spreadsheet of this set to fill in on what backs they have please pm your email (or email me at griffinscards@yahoo.com) and I'll send it out.

DaveW
08-29-2011, 04:07 PM
Thanks Anthony - email sent.

scooter729
08-30-2011, 09:06 AM
Thanks guys - great work and would love to jump in. I've got maybe 500 or so T218s, along with a few dozen C52s, so I'll be happy to help if I can...

DaveW
08-30-2011, 12:41 PM
Scott,
Thanks for joining in. Your data would be greatly appreciated. If you give me your email address, I'll send you my spreadsheet with all the T218 and C52 data I have and you can see what you've got that is not already there. I'm really interested in your C52 cards. Right now, it looks like all the C52s numbered between 1 and 50 come from the Mecca series 1 cards with the "Champion Athlete ..." backs and all of the C52s with numbers between 50 and 100 come from the Mecca cards with the "Series of Champion ..." backs.
- Dave

PM sent with my email address

DaveW
09-02-2011, 01:19 PM
Thanks to all who have shared their data with me (especially Scott S) - this is what is so great about this site! I'm getting pretty close to understanding this set, but I need a little more help. If you have any of the following cards, could you please let me know (a scan would be great, but not absolutely needed)?

T218:
Johnny Hayes or Gusta Ljungstrom with "Series of Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters" on the back (not just "Series of Champion Athletes")

Any Hassan back of H.J. Handy

A Mecca or Hassan (no Series 2 designation) or C52 of Lunghi or James P Sullivan
A Hassan (no Series 2 designation) back of Joe Gans or Jack O'Brien

A Tolstoi back of Jack Johnson (side view, green)

Also any C52 card with a number above 50

I'll be happy to share all of my data with anybody that wants it, just PM me.
Thanks,
- Dave

GasHouseGang
09-06-2011, 02:28 PM
I went through my set, and I didn't have any of the variations you were looking for. Drats!

RBrown
09-09-2011, 12:20 PM
Dave,

Here's a few you asked about.

DaveW
09-09-2011, 01:20 PM
Thanks for looking through your cards and for the scans. I'll add them to the known cards spreadsheet.
As a reward, here's an interesting thing I discovered about one of the cards in the T218 set. George Sutton was a famous billiards player of the day and was pictured playing pool on one card, but in real life he had no hands! He lost them both just below the elbows in a sawmill accident when he was 8 years old - but on the card he is pictured with hands.
- Dave

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc96/dweisner/t218/sutton_front.gif

scooter729
09-09-2011, 03:01 PM
Interesting about Sutton, Dave. I just searched and saw the same thing - here is a picture of the handless wonder. One possible thought - this is "George H. Sutton" of billiards fame - apparently there was a "George F. Sutton" who was known in the billiards world then - any chance the T218's feature the other George Sutton - you know, the one with hands?

DaveW
09-09-2011, 03:25 PM
Scott - You may be correct. It's hard to believe that there were 2 George Suttons playing in the 1910 era, but it's even harder to believe that they missed the fact that the one was handless. The picture also looks more like George F Sutton. I still think that it's amazing that a guy with no hands could get to be a top flight billiards player. Good catch.

DaveW
09-16-2011, 05:00 PM
OK - I think I've finally collected enough data to make some observations about the T218 cards. There are 153 cards in this set, so it would be nice if they split evenly into 3 groups of 51 cards. I think they do! Here's what I see so far:

Group 1 (51 cards) - These cards come with only a Mecca 1 and Hassan 1 back. All of the Mecca cards say "Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter Series" and none of the cards has the Series #2 designation.

Group 2 (51 cards) - These cards all have both Mecca Series 2 and Hassan Series 2 backs. The Mecca cards all say "Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter Series" as well. For some unknown reason, 21 of these cards also come with a Hassan 1 back (but no Mecca 1 back) and 6 other cards come with all 4 backs. All of the Tolstoi cards come from this group. I've found that there are 50 Tolstoi cards (the 49 listed in the original post plus Mike Sullivan). Only the green Jack Johnson card is missing (anybody out there got one?).

Group 3 (51 cards) - These cards all have a Mecca back (no series #2) but they all say "Series of Champion ..." instead of the "Champion Athlete ..." phrase that is on the Group 1 and Group 2 cards. The 11 track guys in this group have 2 different backs. The 4 aviators and 11 track guys have "Series of Champion Athletes" backs. The same 11 track guys and the 11 boxers in this group have "Series of Champion Athletes and Prize Fighters" backs.

So, if you really wanted a complete set with all the backs, you would need close to 300 cards.

I'm still looking for a handful of cards (see a previous post of mine), so if you have any of those please let me know. Thanks for all the help!
- Dave

RBrown
09-16-2011, 10:11 PM
How about this one!

Enjoy....

DaveW
09-18-2011, 02:56 PM
Thanks, but thats the known Johnson Tolstoi with the blue background. I'm looking for the green background Johnson with a Tolstoi back. Maybe it was never issued since they already had a Jack Johnson card in the set. By the way, that's a great looking card - I love that card of Jack Johnson.

Exhibitman
09-19-2011, 08:49 AM
I have never seen a Johnson green w/Tolstoi back. I have seen:

Johnson green: Mecca, Mecca 2, Hassan, Hassan 2
Johnson blue: Mecca, Mecca 2, Hassan, Hassan 2, Tolstoi

Pierre LeBear
09-04-2012, 12:06 PM
I have a collection of these Champions cards, and have found two Tommy O'Keefe cards with identical front and back, except that one has the series #2 writing on the back, and one does not. Could this be a printing error that would make these more valuable than usual?

The above list shows that Tommy O'Keefe should be in Series #2.

Thanks.

DaveW
09-04-2012, 03:56 PM
Monsieur LeBear,
The O'Keefe card is in Group #2, so it should come with a Mecca Series #2 back, a Hassan Series #2 back and a Hassan no series back (but only from Factory 30). If your card has a Mecca no series back or a Hassan no series back from Factory 649, I'd love to see it. As far as value, there is no real monetary difference in the backs (unless it has a Tolstoi back), since nobody but me really cares.
- Dave

markstalbot
09-05-2012, 10:23 PM
Greetings fellow cardboard enthusiasts,

I've been putting together a "master set" (all back, all factories, all variations) of these lovelies for quite some time now and think I can agree with Dave on most of his findings. I noted that an earlier post attempted to identify the Canadian counterpart from Imperial Tobacco and though I still need some information I believe I have a more complete list. I have identified at least (9) numerical entries that have a second card, interestingly between 1 and 50. Here is that list:

C-52 Imperial Tobacco Checklist (T-218 Canadian)

1 Jack Johnson BOX
2 James Jefferies BOX
3a Clarence B. Tippett TRK
3b Tommy Murphy BOX
4a James P. Sullivan TRK
4b Dick Hyland BOX
5a Walter Bursch TRK
5b Ad Wolgast BOX
6a Budd Goodwin TRK
6b Unk Russell BOX
7a Frank Riley TRK
7b Battling Nelson BOX
8a H.E. Gissing TRK
8b Packy McFarland BOX
9 James Crowley TRK
10 S.P. Gilles TRK
11 Andrew Glarner TRK
12 Battling Hurley BOX
13 Melvin W. Sheppard (side face view) TRK
14 Lou Manley TRK
15 Ray C. Ewry TRK
16 Frank C. Irons TRK
17 Jim Stewart BOX
18 Robert Cloughen TRK
19 W.C. Robbins TRK
20 Thomas O'Callaghan TRK
21 Harry Hillman TRK
22 Martin Sheridan TRK
23 C.M. Daniels (seated) TRK
24 Johhny Coulon BOX
25 Platt Adams TRK
26a Geo. J. Obermeyer TRK
26b Harry Porter TRK
27 Tom Collins TRK
28 Lawson Robertson TRK
29 Paul Pilgrim TRK
30 Jack "Twin" Sullivan BOX
31 Jack Eller TRK
32 John Flanagan (full lgth) TRK
33a Emilo Lunghi TRK
33b M.J. McGrath TRK
34 Jem Driscoll BOX
35 Eddie Walsh BOX
36 Richard Frizelle TRK
37 Chas. J. Bacon Jr. TRK
38 Dan Ahearne TRK
39 Owen Moran BOX
40 Willie Lewis BOX
41 Billy West BOX
42 Johnny Marto BOX
43 Jimmy Gardiner BOX
44 Harry Lewis BOX
45 Stanley Ketchell BOX
46 Phil McGovern BOX
47 Walter Lee TRK
48 Abe Attell BOX
49 Sailor Burke BOX
50a Bert Keyes BOX
50b Jimmy Walsh BOX
51 Dave Deshler BOX
52 Fred Welsh BOX
53 Matty Baldwin BOX
54 Gusta Ljungstrom TRK
55 Johnny Hayes TRK
56 Ralph Johnstone AVI
57 J.B.Moisant AVI
58 Arch Hoxey AVI
59 Chas. K. Hamilton AVI
60 ???
61 Alex Smith GOLF
62 Findlay Douglas GOLF
63 Gil Nicholls GOLF
64 ???
65 Charles Eyton BOX
66 Al Delmaont BOX
67 Patsey Kline BOX
68 Frankie Conley BOX
69 Frank Klaus BOX
70 Tommy O'Toole BOX
71 Johnny Summers (sitting) BOX
72 Johnny Summers (standing) BOX
73 Thure Johansson TRK
74 Abel Kiviat TRK
75 E.J. Sweeney TRK
76 Percy Sellen TRK
77 J. J. McEntee TRK
78 Hans Holmer TRK
79 Edward P Weston TRK
80 Fred Meadows TRK
81 John Daly (port) POOL
82 ???
83 Willie Hoppe (portrait) POOL
84 George Sutton (F) POOL
85 ???
86 ???
87 James Rector TRK
88 Harry Cline POOL
89 ???
90 Thomas Hueston POOL
91 ???
92 George Sutton (Full) POOL
93 Ora Morningstar (F) POOL
94 Albert Cutler (F) POOL
95 Albert Cutler (port) POOL
96 William Heins BOWL
97 Calvin Demarest POOL
98 Alex Dunbar BOWL
99 Glenn Riddell BOWL
100 R. Johns (F) BOWL

Any additional info would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!

DaveW
09-06-2012, 01:31 PM
Mark - Nice to have you join us here. Somebody just sold a group of 64 of these cards on EBay, so I can fill in some of the missing numbers for you.

64 - Jerome Keogh
85 - George Low
86 - Jack Hobens
89 - Willie Hoppe (playing)

- Dave

scooter729
09-06-2012, 04:01 PM
Mark - Nice to have you join us here. Somebody just sold a group of 64 of these cards on EBay, so I can fill in some of the missing numbers for you.

64 - Jerome Keogh
85 - George Low
86 - Jack Hobens
89 - Willie Hoppe (playing)

- Dave

Hey Dave,

I bought that group of the 64 C52's on eBay last week, and got them in hand yesterday. Some of the backs weren't scanned in the listing, so I can review when I get home to see if i can fill in any of the other blanks as well!

Scott

DaveW
09-06-2012, 04:59 PM
Nice pickup Scott! I talked to the seller and got scans of the rest of the cards before the auction, so I doubt that you will find anything new. If you (or anybody else) wants a copy of my latest spreadsheet, I'll be happy to send it to you. I've updated it with all the factory numbers, error cards, etc. There are over 600 front/back/factory combos and I only have about 15 left that I need to verify.
- Dave

markstalbot
09-07-2012, 01:17 AM
Well thanks for the welcome and the information Dave and Scott. Thanks to your help only (3) to figure out #60, 82 & 91 and continue to keep my eyes out for double printed numbers in the early series. My gut tells me the MIA numbers will be; Fred Herreshoff GOLF, Alfredo de Oro POOL & Charles Weston POOL - just a hunch as they are the only golfers and billiard players not yet represented.

Since you mentioned a lot that recently sold I took a peek to see what was out there on evil Bay and noted your postings Scott. Though I have nearly 600 T-218's in my master collection I still need about 60 cards in the Imperial Tobacco set with the Boxers, Smith, Tippett, Riley & O'Callaghan on my list. I may take a stab at the Boxers and Golfer but am less likely to go for the larger lot that would result in plenty of dupes.

Speaking of dupes I have hundreds of T-218's available if anyone is interested - I mostly like to trade (I'm an OBC & VCT member) and I'm still searching for a few "commons" for my Master set. Filling out the 30 or so Tolstoi's I still need is more likely to consume the remainder of my time on earth, but I'm shooting for another 40 - 50 years so it could be possible (especially if I hit the lottery).

Thanks again gentlemen - I hope my initial listing helped you fellas out and I appreciate your assistance as I near closer to completion of the "fact finding" mission I've been on for quite some time now - BE WELL!!!!

scooter729
10-16-2012, 09:08 PM
I was fortunate enough recently to pick up most of the remaining cards I needed for my C52 set, so I can fill in the blanks on the last three numbers from Mark's list above.

Mark was right about his speculations on #'s 60, 82 and 91 - as you can see from the scans below, they are Herreshoff, Weston and De Oro.

DaveW
10-18-2012, 12:36 PM
Wow Scott - nice job! How do you keep finding these cards? You must have people watching every antique store in Canada! So now we have accounted for all the numbers from 1 to 100 with 9 known numbers that have 2 cards (numbers 3,4,5,6,7,8,26,33 and 50). Do we think all the low numbers (1 thru 50) have 2 cards? I recently found a C52 of Fielding. Unfortunately, it's missing some paper on the back where the number should be, but it's clearly a C52. Any idea what number it is?
- Dave

scooter729
10-23-2012, 09:44 AM
Hi Dave,

I don't have a C52 Fielding, so I'm not sure about the number on that one. I'd be really surprised if the whole first 50 card series has multiple cards for each number though; my 100 or so cards were gathered independent from Mark's list above, and I have no overlapping cards he didn't list.

So maybe Fielding is an addition to the C52 set as you have one, but that might mean there are 10-12 duplicate numbers, and not quite 50.

Exhibitman
10-23-2012, 02:09 PM
Slight hijack here: I have a few extra T218 boxing Tolstois I'd be willing to trade for ones I need.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/saleholding/websize/T218%20Tolstoi%20Gans%20SGC%2030.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/saleholding/websize/T218%20Tolstoi%20Langford%20SGC%2020.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/saleholding/websize/T218%20Tolstoi%20Sullivan%20SGC%2030.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/saleholding/websize/T218%20Tolstoi%20Walsh%20SGC%2030.jpg

scooter729
10-23-2012, 02:45 PM
Adam, are there are any Tolstoi boxers specifically that you're looking for? I don't have any duplicates, but potentially could swap with you if I have ones which could help you out...

Exhibitman
10-23-2012, 03:19 PM
I have:

Brown
Corbett
Donahoe
Gans
Gardiner, Geo.
Griffin, Charley
Goodman, Jack
Goodman, Abe
Jeannette
Jeffries portrait
Johnson-front
Kaufman
Langford
Mellody
Nelson, Fighting Dick
Nitchie
O'Keefe
Papke
Stone
Sullivan, Mike (Twin)
Walsh, Jimmy

So any others would be on the want list. I also have dupes of Stone and Johnson but unslabbed.