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09-10-2007, 11:04 AM
Posted By: <b>Shanon Ping</b><p>Tom Glavine just won his 303rd career game last night and is having a fine season but has he been a dominant enough pitcher over his career to justify the Hall? Are todays standards easier or tougher for HOF enshrinement?

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09-10-2007, 03:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>there is no doubt in my mind that Glavine will eventually get in. Perhaps not a very first ballot, but he'll be in within the first 3-5 ballot years.<br /><br />300 wins has always been a lock for the Hall of Fame, and likely will continue to be. The only numerical "lock" that may fail to continue in the future is the 500 Home Run Club. Used to be if you hit 500 homers, you would automatically get in. I don't think that will continue. Although I believe that McGwire will definitely find his way in...I'm less sure about Palmeiro, and there are others that may not make it as well.

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09-10-2007, 03:55 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Glavine is a lock for the Hall of Fame. He's had several 20 win seasons as well and a Cy Young. Also part of a legendary pitching staff, that type of stuff is given a lot of weight by voters.<br /><br />Peter C.

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09-10-2007, 04:32 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>He will get in on the first ballot. Especially considering he's under no cloud of suspicion where most of his contemporaries that are eligible are going to be. Winning 300 games in this era is remarkable and we may not see another 300 game winner for a very long time.

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09-10-2007, 04:44 PM
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>be serious....you do not win 300 games and not be a dominant pitcher? this guy is a lock for the hall.

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09-10-2007, 04:56 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>First ballot HOF-no doubt about it.

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09-10-2007, 05:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Ditto<br /><br />Ditto<br /><br />Ditto

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09-10-2007, 06:01 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>No doubt Glavine will be in the Hall. To answer the second part of your question, I think that winning 300 games in a career will actually become more rare than it is now, due to pitch counts, way fewer complete games, what seems to me as more reliance on middle relievers/specialists, etc.

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09-10-2007, 06:08 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>We may not have a single 20 game winner this year.

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09-10-2007, 06:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>He's a lock. Even if you don't think he was dominant, consider Sutton and Niekro. Neither was a dominant pitcher, but both won 300 games and are in.<br /><br />Wasn't it just a few years ago that people were saying Roger Clemens would be the last 300 game winner?

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09-10-2007, 06:55 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Actually, both players and fans have thought that the 300 game winner would become extinct. When Early Wynn reached 300 wins, he thought that he would be the last pitcher to do so. I hesitate, now days to say that Glavine will be the last. Because it seems like power pitchers seem to pitch for a lot more years than before.<br /><br />For instance both Ryan and Clemens pitched into their mid-40's, if Josh Beckett is pitching at that age he should be closing in on 300 wins. So it's quite possible for another 300 game winner to turn up soon.<br /><br />Peter C.

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09-10-2007, 07:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan -- and this year would be the second in a row with no 20 game winner. Last year, the leading winner in the NL had just 16. <br /><br />One thing that seems to be sure, though: Maddux will be the last 350 game winner.

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09-10-2007, 07:15 PM
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Becket won his 18th game of the season today. That gives him a career total of 75 wins. To forecast him getting to 300 is very premature. He is 27. he would have to average 15 wins a season for the next 15 years to get there when he's 42. Let's check back with him in 2020. <br /><br />Right now the only guys within a stone's throw of 300 are Randy Johnson (career may be over) and Mike Mussina (seems to have lost it, for now at least.)<br /><br />Note to Dan. We didn't have any 20 winners last year, but both Becket and Wang have a good shot this year. They both won number 18 today, and each has 3 or 4 starts left.

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09-10-2007, 09:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>it's all perception.<br /><br />Clemens took 24 years to win 354 (so far)<br />Maddux took 22 years to win 345<br />Glavine has taken 21 years to won 303...<br /><br />If I had to rank those 3 before looking at the numbers, I would have ranked them in the order above, in terms of my perception of dominance.<br /><br />But if you look at them, Maddux s actually more dominant, in terms of wins per season.<br /><br />hmm...

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09-10-2007, 10:49 PM
Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> There is no doubt in my mind that he will get in. Peter, just to set the record straight he won 2 CY Young awards I believe in 1991 and 1998. CN

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09-10-2007, 11:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Shanon Ping</b><p>I am not saying that Glavine is not deserving but was he the dominate pitcher of his era, no. Randy Johnson was a better pitcher. Let's compare stats for the 2 plus I will throw in Carlton, the most dominating lefty in recent history.<br /><br />Glavine: <br /><br />Wins- 303 (and counting)<br />ERA- 3.48<br />K- 2563<br />20 win seasons- 5<br />19 win seasons- 0<br />Cy Young- 2<br /><br />Johnson:<br /><br />Wins- 284<br />ERA- 3.22<br />K- 4616<br />20 win seasons- 3<br />19 win seasons- 3<br />Cy Young- 5<br /><br />Carlton:<br /><br />Wins- 329<br />ERA- 3.22<br />K- 4136<br />20 win seasons- 6<br />19 win seasons- 0<br />Cy Young- 4<br /><br />Averaged out over 20 seasons Johnson has 1 less win but 100 more K's and a .26 better Earned Run Average.

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09-10-2007, 11:43 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Koufax is in the Hall, yet if you're going strictly by the numbers, it can be deceiving. Compared to Glavine, for instance:<br /><br />Only 167 lifetime wins<br />Less strikeouts (2,396)<br />1 more Cy Young (3)<br /><br />Yet, no one will doubt his total dominance in the years he was at his best.<br /><br />So, I don't think you need to be THE dominant pitcher (I mean Glavine), just A dominant pitcher. 300 wins is pretty impressive in any day and age, compared to, say, all the 500+ HR hitters that have cropped up the past 15-20 years (regardless of how they got there.)

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09-11-2007, 02:01 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>People underestimate the importance of being part of a legendary rotation. For middle infielders, Tinkers to Evers to Chance is legendary. But taken separately, if each had played for different teams, only Johnny Evers is really deserving.<br /><br />Moreover the greater part of the '90s it has been Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz. That is a legendary threesome.<br /><br />Peter C.

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09-11-2007, 02:58 PM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>You wrote: "More the greater part of the '90s it has been Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz. That is a legendary threesome."<br /><br />-I would add: especially since each is deserving on his own merits!

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09-12-2007, 02:20 PM
Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>303 wins, 2 Cy Youngs, no cloud of PED suspicion, 1-0 8 inning performance in the deciding game of the 1995 WS. Plus he has won 303 games with stuff that "looks like" you and I could hit it. If he does not go in on the first ballot I will be shocked.

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09-16-2007, 07:00 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>The Mets are looking pretty good right now, with Pedro making a come back in time for the playoffs, Tom Glavine may get some more WS glory.<br /><br />Peter C.

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09-16-2007, 08:10 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Unlike with home run milestones, it's a lot harder to win 300 games today than it was 20, 30 or 50 years ago.

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09-16-2007, 11:15 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Since that seems true David, I have difficulty explaining pitchers attaining the 350 win level. Grover Cleveland Alexander was the last, until Spahn.<br />Now Clemens is there and Maddux is knocking on the door.