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08-28-2007, 11:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Along with the 1949 Leaf Satchel Paige, one of the truely scarce, major post-war cards, is the 1954 Bowman Ted Williams.<br />Sy Berger (of Topps fame) in 1954 forced the Bowman Gum Co. to "discard" their Ted Williams (#66); as, Topps in 1954<br /> had the exclusive rights to portray TW.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/bowman1954tw.jpg">

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08-29-2007, 10:08 AM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>One of the coolest pictures I've ever seen (where people are clothed) was a picture of Larry Fritsch holding up seven or eight '54 Bowman Williams cards that he got out of packs all at one time in the year of issue. Quite the pull.<br /><br />That's a beautiful card Ted!!<br /><br />edited to say that I just noticed the little "reprint" disclaimer. Still looks nice. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-29-2007, 11:19 AM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BOB<br /><br />I faked you out with that 1989 Topps/Bowman reprint....it was in my photo library and was convenient<br /> to display to start this thread.<br /><br />Here are some of my real Bowman Gum Co....Ted Williams cards.<br /><br />And, regarding your Larry Fritsch story, I remember it, too....and it's true. As, Bowman was "dis-carding"<br /> all their 1954 TW cards because of Topps' court case against them.<br /><br />TED Z <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/bowmangumcotedwilliams.jpg">

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08-29-2007, 11:42 AM
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Those are three beauties Ted. I have always especially loved the '51 Bowman.<br />JimB

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08-29-2007, 12:03 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I'm curious, why is Ted W's 1951 Bowman a favorite of yours ?<br /><br />Myself, I have always liked the colorfully artistic Bowmans (1950-1952) that have stadium backdrops.<br />As a kid, I was very fascinated with the architecture of the old ballparks.<br /><br />TED Z

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08-29-2007, 12:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I have recently become rather attracted to the 1950-52 Bowmans, myself. The colors and the great backgrounds - particularly those of my hometown ballfield, Wrigley. One of my longer-term colelcting goals will be to collect the Cubs team sets of these issues.<br />great stuff.<br />thanks for sharing - that is a gorgeous 51 Williams<br /><br />

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08-29-2007, 12:46 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>No '54 Bowman Williams for me. But I do have card #66. Ted was replaced with Jimmy Piersall, who also appears on card #210. Now that IS crazy!<br /><img src="http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z26/pspec/Bowman_54_Piersall_66.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z26/pspec/Bowman_54_Piersall_210_b.jpg">

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08-29-2007, 01:02 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>PAUL S<br /><br />Not really...."crazy", as Bowman would design their sets with "team sequences". So, they replaced Ted with another Red Sox player.<br />The 1954 Bowman set is perfectly sequenced with the 16 teams of that era....(i.e.) #1 is Rizzuto, #17 is Raschi, #33 is still another<br /> Yankee, etc., etc.<br /><br />TED Z<br />

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08-29-2007, 01:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Thanks Ted. I never realized that about the sequencing. As a kid in the 60's, I very briefly met Piersall's son a couple of times, as he lived in the same general area I did. Nice unassuming boy, as I remember. Never got to meet his father though.

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08-29-2007, 01:20 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />I like your '51 Bowman Ted Williams better than the '50 Bowman Ted Williams just because the card is larger and you get a better view of the nice blue sky and the stadiu. The drawback in collecting both sets is that pictures of ballplayers like Williams are commonly duplicated in the second year.<br /><br />It's difficult for me to believe that Bowman didn't have enough money to take new photographs, do you have any idea why there are so many duplicate pictures on the cards?<br /><br />Peter C.

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08-29-2007, 01:33 PM
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Bumped the right way (a pleasant surprise) from a PSA4 to this SGC60. Just wish I could get better focus off the scanner <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />Sorry for the slab reference Ted <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>. <br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1188325916.JPG">

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08-29-2007, 01:47 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Great looking card. The centering is tough on this card, a slightly more centered card would have gotten you a SGC 70.<br /><br />Normally, PSA is more lax in their standards, what happened here? Maybe the PSA grader just had an off day.<br /><br />Peter C.

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08-29-2007, 01:55 PM
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Thanks Peter, I'm not sure though on its best day it ever gets a 70 because of the two bottom corners......SGC5.5's are actually a very strong grade in my experience and will often look to have better corners than a PSA6 - needing in fact to be close to near mint. <br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />

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08-29-2007, 02:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I just broke out a couple SGC 70 cards that will be on their way to PSA, and I would be surprised if they came back anything less than 6...but we'll see.

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08-29-2007, 03:19 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You have a very fine looking Ted #66, it's certainly one of the nicer ones I've seen. Generally, 1954 B cards are tough to find better than Ex-Mt <br />condition....much less this extremely tough card of Ted Williams.<br /><br />1954 was not one of the banner years for Bowman in terms of the quality of their cards....1953 was fabulous, and 1955 was fun with the TV set.<br /><br />I'm curios Dan, did you initially acquire it raw and had it graded....or, acquired it graded ?<br /><br />TED Z

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08-29-2007, 03:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Overall, as a collection of cards, many of my '54 Bowmans have actually have made it through the years in better condition than most from the immediate surrounding years, either Topps or Bowman. I believe this is due to the fact that they just didn't get handled as much, as it's not usually listed in anyone's favorites. Personally, I happen to like the set, although it I think it's safe to say that others from the first half of the 50s are a lot more popular. Anyone else have their 54 B's come through comparitively unscathed?

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08-29-2007, 05:38 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Jimmy Piersall is quite a character, at the Willow Grove Show (early '90s), I was waiting to get his autograph.<br />The guy in front of me (a dealer) handed Piersall 20 baseballs to sign. This must of "ticked-off" Piersall.....<br />because as he signed each ball, instead of handing them back to this guy, he would toss them into the guy's<br /> box and the signed BB's were bouncing all over the room.

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08-29-2007, 05:38 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I finally got around to scanning mine (thanks for the shove). <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://www.bobsbbcards.com/images/baseball/1954/1954bowman/54Bowman066Williams.jpg">

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08-29-2007, 05:42 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />I've been collecting '54 Bowmans off and on for the last 5 years. It's kind of strange, I'm able to find commons in near mint, but I'm having trouble finding star cards in near mint.<br /><br />I'm not sure why this happens, but my guess is that collectors are unwilling to sell their star cards on the open market, but will sell their commons. Any other ideas on why this might happen?<br /><br />Peter C.

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08-29-2007, 06:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>No idea Peter. I haven't gone out of my way to look but I do see HOFers/Stars in top condition in non-ebay auctions actions, such as those that advertise on this site.

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08-29-2007, 08:41 PM
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Because of the high prices achieved or just demanded for graded examples of this card, I had been looking expressly over perhaps 18 months for a raw one. What became obvious was the relative dearth of nice unslabbed 54' Bowman Teds, and what seemed like an epidemic of trimmed examples. And obviously trimmed at that. Raw examples seemingly also suffer from serious over-grading and over-pricing by sellers looking to cash in on its celebrity, so in the end I found I could buy a really nice slabbed 4 I felt had a chance of grading a little better on review, for no more than a naked one.<br />It was all a little wierd to be frank (hi Frank <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>), but when the card arrived I was just super pleased to be adding a card to my collection whose condition I really enjoy!<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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08-30-2007, 08:12 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>DANIEL<br /><br />Thanks for your interesting story. I do not see nice examples of this card anymore in its raw form; and, that's why I asked.<br /><br />TED Z

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08-30-2007, 08:52 PM
Posted By: <b>Daryle</b><p>Here------<br /><a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o313/wolfie70/fritsch.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

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08-31-2007, 06:14 AM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>That's the picture. Thanks for posting it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-31-2007, 08:06 AM
Posted By: <b>Al</b><p>But it is good he is clothed

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09-01-2007, 09:44 AM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>AL<br /><br />I do not understand your comment ?<br /><br />TED Z

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09-01-2007, 04:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>TED Z<br /><br />Al was mocking me for my comment at the top of the thread where I said that was the most exciting picture I had ever seen--at least in pictures where the people had their clothes on. Al might be a bit hard to figure out, but he means no harm. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Bob<br /><br />P.S. I do agree with Al that Mr. Fritsch unclothed would be a bit disconcerting.

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09-01-2007, 05:20 PM
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Ted,<br />I like the '51 for the same reasons as you: the artistry, the colors, the old stadium background, and the classic post-swing pose. It captures it all. Classic.<br />JimB

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09-05-2007, 10:41 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Had to find mine I dont have a single graded card.<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1188963250.JPG">

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09-08-2007, 06:00 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Al,<br /><br />Are you serious? You don't have a single graded card? So, when you buy a graded card, you crack the holder?<br /><br />Peter C.

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09-08-2007, 06:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>I don't have a single graded card either. Never owned one.<br />I keep threatening, but it has never come about,<br />therefore(sp?) never had to break one out. I'm not<br />against them at all, I just don't have any. Maybe I should<br /><br />Ted Z, I don't believe you have graded either, do you?<br />

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09-08-2007, 07:02 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Paul S.,<br /><br />If you don't buy graded cards then what do you do in a situation when you see a graded card that you would really like to have in your collection?<br /><br />As an example, Ted says that it is becoming difficult to find '54 Bowman Ted Williams cards in raw condition. Now you see a graded '54 B Ted Williams which is reasonably priced and you want it for your collection, what do you do?<br /><br />Peter C.

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09-08-2007, 08:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I'd buy the card and keep it in the holder. As intimated in my above post, I'm not a purist -- just hasn't happened. I imagine it is inevitable it will happen. I don't forsee it in the near future as I haven't been buying much that's pricey in awhile.<br /><br />You of course have no way of knowing, but the bulk of my collection I acquired before the grading companies came along. I'd like to think I'm good at spotting fakes because I've handled and still handle raws for such a long time. But as you do know, the scammers keep getting more sophisicated (except the ones who always seem to have the "wolf at the door" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) and so I would prefer grading as a good safeguard (usually, it seems), and one can't really handle a card that he/she sees on the internet.<br />

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09-08-2007, 08:52 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>1st....that's a real nice Ted Williams you have....its coloring is brighter than most.<br />And, you have him in "free plastic"....good for you.<br /><br />2nd....my answer to your question is Yes and No<br /><br />I have a beautiful 1949 Bowman Stan Musial in a high grade SGC holder for my 1st set.<br />And, there is a long story behind why I did get this card graded. It is really the only<br /> card that will stay graded in my collection. All other cards are "naked".<br /><br />Now, I also have quite a few T and E cards in graded holders that eventually I will crack <br />open....or, sell them when I can replace these cards with their "naked" counterpart.<br /><br />TED Z

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09-08-2007, 09:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Peter,<br />I like paul did aquire most of my collection before grading was a real issue. I myself also tend to think because I have bought many large (raw) collections I find myself a very good judge of what Im looking at. I wrote many articles for Baseball card update back in the early mid 80s. Also did some articles for SCD. As I said I find grading such a subjective subject. I will let you ponder one thought, If and I do mean if grading is the standard for all cards why would someone crack a lets say psa 7 card send it back in the hopes that they get an 8 the next time around. Maybe because they felt the (card gods) made a mistake!! So that would mean to me that even the grader is subject to scrutiny. The bottom line is grading has a place for buyers and sellers but for the true collector (old school) grading really doesnt come into play until you are ready to sell it. A good case in point the carter collection did you see anything graded in his collection before he decided to sell it!

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09-08-2007, 09:34 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Ted Z.<br />I think my "raw" "naked" Un Graded 54 Williams is just a tad better than your "raw" "naked" 54 Williams. What do you think? My thought is to let Peter decide and put a grade on it!!! LOL

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09-08-2007, 10:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>GEE, you're right Al we need a "3rd party opinion".<br /><br /> Can you imagine Jefferson Burdick, or Frank Nagy, or Lionel Carter, or Buck Parker being told by some <br />young whippersnapper...."unless you get your cards graded, I don't trust you" ! ! ! !<br /><br />This is what this hobby has come to....but, all this was foretold by others who were familiar with the <br />stamp and coin grading industry. First, the prices would go up....then greed begets greed....then the <br />fakes would follow....and finally (the worst aspect of it all)....there would be consternation between<br /> the "haves" and "have nots".<br /><br />TED Z<br />

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09-08-2007, 10:52 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Ted Z.<br />You are so right! The key word you touched on is GREED. All the people you touched on , the Burdicks, Nagys, and Carters all had PREMIRE collections meaning there collections were so vast and in carters case pristine that yes since the option of grading is such in his favor it would be foolish not to have the cards graded.This could be a whole other topic I would be so curious to know what these men really think of grading and the amount of money there items are going to and have commanded!! But as we know lets just use this forum, for the average person looking to buy a GEM 10 54 bowman ted williams the price would be way out of his range (because of grade) but to buy a non graded lets say vg-ex 54 williams (non Graded) there would probably be a card out there he could buy. The "hobby" as we (old school) people see it has become ruined by the so called grader. If this hobby is to survive meaning NEW BLOOD i.e. young children and teenagers looking to collect some of these older items they will never be able to afford any of this (high Graded) material unless there is the "raw" or lesser material available. Here is another ponder for you peter you now have that great looking gem 10 54 Ted Williams $20,000 1/1 if there is no one out there to but it whats it worth? I guess P.T. Barnum said it best there is a SUCKER born every minute! I wouldnt want to be the last one holding the bag when the bottom falls out of that graded market!!

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09-08-2007, 11:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>My favorite thing about raw/naked cards is that I can<br />actually hold them in my own raw/naked paws!<br /><br />Here, Mick catches up on the post-war board.<br /><br /><img src="http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z26/pspec/Other/Mantle.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Below, Mick breaks the news to Sandy about his<br />centering issues. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z26/pspec/Other/Mantle_Koufax.jpg"><br /><br /><br />

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09-09-2007, 07:53 AM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>I equally fail to understand the old school collectors who just vilify grading across the board. The late 1980s and early 1990s saw a huge influx of card alteration techniques, not just limited to trimming.<br /><br />For those of us in our early 30s and younger -- collecting vintage cards in nice condition is a challenge. There are monetary constraints, supply constraints, etc. I know too many people that have been burned by re-colored cards, cards with built up corners, trimmed cards, etc. to want to drop hundreds, if not thousands, in this hobby without some sort of assurance. I do agree that competing with one another simply on a numerical grade assigned to a piece of cardboard can be quite silly. But for many of us young whipper-snappers, grading offers us a comfort level that especially aids in purchasing and selling cards in today's card show -- Ebay and the online auction houses.<br /><br />~marc

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09-09-2007, 07:57 AM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Very nice RAWS Paul. You can put those 2 terrible looking Raws in the mail to me anytime,I would be happy to take those or any others off your hands and save you the embarassment of keeping those (un graded) rags in your collection!!

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09-09-2007, 11:27 AM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Hi Marc -- I don't want to presume to speak for Ted and<br />Al, but I don't think they really mean to "vilify grading<br />across the board", as it is really more of a lament that<br />baseball cards went from collecting to a business to<br />(practically) an industry. (By the way I have no idea of<br />Al's age, am just really "meeting" him for the first time -<br />- maybe he's 17 {Hi Al!). In fact much of Ted's post is<br />actually on the side of the "younger" collector and the<br />problems he/she is up against as far as the obstacles that<br />you mention in your own post. I don't believe they have anything against a great looking card in a holder; they<br />have too much respect for the cards themselves, yours <br />included.<br /><br />As for myself, I am not chronologically quite as old<br />school (Al's age pending, and I'm "getting up there"<br />school), but I was fortunate enough to purchase so much of<br />my collection in a time and a place that you yourself<br />would benefit from were it to re-occur in this day and age.<br />I was still in my teens by the time the sixties<br />ended, and nothing gave me more pleasure than to hold a<br />raw card in my hands whenever I wanted to. And I can still<br />do it and get that same enjoyment. Hence my post. I think<br />we all wish the same for you.<br /><br />Paul S<br /><br /><br />*edit for word wrap

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09-09-2007, 11:35 AM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Al -- Thanks! Can't part with them, but you're free to run your hands over them anytime. -- Paul S<br />

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09-09-2007, 04:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Hi Paul,<br />Thanks for the kind words! As I always like to put it Im in the early afternoon of life. (50). I became more old school back when I started to see what direction the (hobby) or business was starting to take in the early 90s.This is more for Marc---- You could see the writing on the wall now that cards had become BIG BUSINESS espically when a grade started being attached to them. And yes you are right I have nothing against grading and graded cards I just prefer the older way of buying. Case in point I have seen graded cards that were done early in the start of grading that now show evidence of having built up corners, bleaching, pressing that are now being exposed with new technology i.e. black light detection etc. with grades nm7 nm8 wow what are they worth now? Again slab it, and send it out there as gospel isnt always what it appeares to be. In this day and age you cant tell me that someone out there cant produce a holder just like lets say the BIG 4 grading companies ,make up fake number and bar codes with a hologram and stick a card in there and pass it off as being graded by one of the big 4. Tell me who would know? Maybe what Im trying to point out is that the TRUST FACTOR has really taken it on the chin since the HOBBY became big business. Just read the posts that are being put up about the auction houses and pictures that are enhanced,fixed,computed changed, anyway you want to put it all for making a sale and turning a profit.And to He@@ with customer relationship. My point is you have your way and some of us have our way. You can still have nice RAW card collections out there that are great to look at and touch other that being given a slab and a number. Ted Z. seems to always get into it with Peter C. because Peter prefers graded over Raw. The point is WHO CARES. Both parties have great cards and thats the way either prefer to collect. Thats why they call it a personal collection!

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09-09-2007, 06:00 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I hope you guys are right about grading being a passing fad. Today, I purchased a '54 Bowman Mantle at the Tri-Star show in SF. Very nice, my guess is that it is a PSA 6.<br /><br />I've been buying and informally grading cards for about 20 years so it's difficult to take the opinion of some 20 year old that has been grading for about 2 years.<br /><br />I also have a raw '54 Bowman Ted Williams that's in about PSA 7, once I get my scanner working again I'll scan it.<br /><br />Have a good weekend guys.<br /><br />Peter C.

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09-09-2007, 06:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Peter -- congratulations of the cards. I look forward to<br />seeing them.<br />Also, I don't necessarilly think grading is a passing fad at all. Can't say how long it will continue to dictate what it does re the industry, but I think it is here to stay, in one form or another. Basically, the point is that there is more than one way to go about it all.<br />

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09-09-2007, 07:36 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>GIVE THAT MAN A CIGAR!!! Paul has figured out what I was trying to say! PETER as for you I still do think you get it. I never said in all my posts that grading is a passing fad. It will be here to stay in one form or another. Great pickups on your new RAW cards hope you enjoy them! Love to see your scans of them when you get them back from your grader!! Curious to see a before and after !!

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09-09-2007, 08:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Al -- Thank you for the my new official interpreter designation. I didn't even know I that's what I did. Love your "early afternoon" of life description. I'm about 2:15pm myself. Have you gotten any AARP literature in the mail yet? Blew me away when they sent me some, the bums. Next thing you know I'll be searching out the Early Bird Specials!

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09-09-2007, 09:56 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>So right Paul!Its all down hill from here!!LOL yes wait until you get your 10% discount on perscription drugs!! That will really get you! I was just posting up some nice pins on the SHOW YOUR BUTTONS post and DAN B. paid me some nice complements! Take a look. I dont want to take away from this Ted Williams post so I will keep it very short!

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09-09-2007, 10:03 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Al, you're right about hijacking this thread.<br />Where's the button thread? Can't locate it.

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09-09-2007, 10:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Paul,<br />Click the network 54 vintage card forum the square box in the middle above then click on the network 54 vintage mem.forum that will come up. should be at the top of the post Show your buttons!!